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coyote23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: small block advice
    Posted: 22-January-2015 at 2:08PM
OK so I have a351w and was wondering the HP and torque diff. Between 351w with bolt one or 408stroker and cost difference and more importantly would it b worth making stroker

Edited by coyote23 - 22-January-2015 at 2:09PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-January-2015 at 11:20AM
 
... all other things being equal increasing stroke will increase torque, but horsepower stays the same, a stroker moves peak torque and peak horsepower to a lower rpm.

393 cubic inches ........ 357 cubic inches

489 ft/lbs peak .......... 444 ft/lbs peak

536hp @ 5900 rpm ... 536hp @ 6500 rpm
 
====================
 
the area that needs the most help on a 351W is the cylinder heads. if you were to stroke a W out to 408 that would make the deficiency worse unless you upgrade the heads, is that part of the 'bolt on' plan?
 
a stroker becomes very cost effective if you'd need a complete bottom end for the stock rebuild anyways, then it's just a matter of spending almost the same money for what you already need, but again w/o the top end support you won't see the full advantage
 
the intake ports aren't too bad but the exhausts are Dead
 
ya know what would really put some smack into it, stock 351C-4V heads & intake with an intake spacer kit to make them compatible to finish with a 408 or 427 Clevor 4V Handshake
 
or there are some pretty good 351W direct replacement heads that are pretty good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-January-2015 at 12:31PM
yes, the exhaust ports are very restrictive, i noticed on my 351w just adding good shorty headers and swapping from 2' dual exhaust up to 2 1/2" made a noticeable difference in how it ran, like i had a slight off-idle hesitation and idle quality issues that were minor, but after just changing that exhaust alone , those issues are completely gone Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 9:26AM
OK I'm wanting to go 408 but not sure on what to get first engine build will b doing a lot of changes like headers exhaust etc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 9:31AM
Or if I should keep 351w without bore
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 10:33AM
Do the math on your choices, see what it will cost to get heads, intake, and matching camshaft to support the 408 etc.

Then check with Fordstrokers.com to see what it would cost to buy it complete and ship it to you. I think the 351W strokers run close to $3k for a complete short block, and last I knew the camshaft install was free if you also went to the long block and rockers etc. I had my 302(347) built three years ago, and the cost beyond their listed prices were about $300-$400 to include shipping, and installing head studs, oil pump, timing chain, rockers etc. Mine just lacks bolting on the intake and pans to install, I didn't have time this time to build an engine myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 11:03AM
unless it's an aftermarket 'race' type block that is capable of extreme overboring you won't gain a whole lot of cubic inches from boring the cylinders, it's more of a restorative operation to repair cylinder bore wear
 
it's the crankshaft stroke that makes the Huge difference
 
self-funded local type racers are very cautious about using up cylinder wall thickness to un-necessary refreshing operations, they'll pay the $ for custom pistons in .005" 1/2 step oversizes to make the block last as long as possible
 
let the condition of your block determine what needs to be done as far as reconditioning the cylinder bores
 
==============
 
like I mentioned up above if it turns out you need to have the crank re-ground & new pistons anyway that same $ can go a long way into a stroker kit or replacements that make your own kit using your existing connecting rods... but a 351W can do pretty well with the stock 3.5" stroke too if that budget just isn't there Big smile
 
==============
 
don't overlook the 'total package' meaning the engine trans & rear end, suspension, steering & brakes
 
there are improvements you can make besides tweaking the motor that will make worlds of difference in overall enjoyment of the car
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 11:27AM
Ya I'm planning on doing suspension and steering with c6 trane nd 3:73 gears and engine is 3 yrs old
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 11:32AM
^^^X2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 11:33AM
?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 11:35AM
i meant what max said (you posted before i postedEmbarrassed)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-January-2015 at 11:43AM
Gotcha I'm on path
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 12:40AM
Your bang for buck is, IMHO:
 
Intake/Carb
Cam
AL Heads (you will never get same performace from stock iron as you will even cheap AL aftermarkets no matter what the old skool guys say).
Stroking
 
You need to build the base engine first.  Get the block cleaned up, honed, prob a .30 over cleanup.  New rings, pistons maybe (chance to get some compresson) main and cam bearings, seals, new Harmonic balancer.  Get the basics good and solid.

Make it breath first, like mentioned. Just spoke to Edelbrock guy this weekend and E-Street and Performer heads are same casting and machining, just different valve spring components.  E-street is about $950/Pr, AFR, TrickFlow, Performer, about $1500/pr.
 
I also looked at stroker kits and have slowly talked myself out of it.  For the $1300 - 1500 a nice balanced set would run (Scat) I think AL heads are a much bigger bang for the same or less $$$. 
 
I'd love to have the $$ to do it all, but I can't.
 
My build plan:
Block cleanup  - new cam and main bearings of course, .30 if the cyl need them. The usual stuff...
Weiand Stealth intake (maybe summit stage 2, they look the same).
Edelbrock 600CFM performer w/vac secondaries and ele choke.
Lunati 20350711LK Roller Cam Kit (not 100% sold on this yet)
Edelbrock E-Street Heads.
Comp Cams Roller Rockers and Valve Springs (a variety at different price points)
Pertronix Flame Thrower Dist and Coil (Already Installed)
Summit headers (Already Installed)
2.5 dual exhause with cross over (already installed)
Misc rebuild parts - water and oil pumps, harmoic balancer, timing marker
 
Is that a 10 sec car? Nope!!  Will it be fast?  I think so.  Can I make it faster in the future? Yep !!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 1:24AM
Depending on the cam, that 600 may be a little small. No way to really tell until you get it on the street. That sounds like an awesome Windsor build, though, and I am a die-hard small block guy. Cheaper to build, plentiful parts (thanks to the 5.0 movement), vast potential on displacement, lighter weight, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 1:55AM
351W at 100% efficiency at 6,000 rpm requires 609 cfm
MOST builds will only run about 80% and that requires 488cfm so the 600 Holley works perfect!
 
A 408 Stroker at 100% efficiency at 6,00 rpm requires 708cfm
at the 80% for a good built motor... 566 cfm
so you could use a 650 and be good
 
NOW if you are running a higher revving cam with a higher redline/shift point...
6500rpm is 613/737cfm at 80/100% respectively. Again you could use a 650 or even a 700.
 
ALL of this HAS to play with the proper intake for the cam, heads and CR
 
Without a set of aftermarket heads you will not reach even close to 80% efficiency
 
here is the calculator...
 
My machine shop uses the same one and he builds a lot of race motors too.
LONG discussions about what I want Lola to do, what gears, tranny and tires she will run sets the RPM range and that is fueling the Cam/intake decision. Already ordered a set of FlowTek Aluminum heads too.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 2:02AM
•Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 272/280
•Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 221/229
•Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .549/.565
•LSA/ICL: 112/106
•Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
•RPM Range: 2200-6200
•Includes: Cam & Lifters (#72915-16)


Part Number: 20350711LK

This is the cam he is contemplating. Plenty of lift, good duration. Voodoo series. He is also using a Stealth intake along with Edelbrock aluminum heads. That is why I think it may need a bit more fuel - especially if the displacement increases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 3:31AM
Yeah, it may be a bit under carb'ed but I will be doing the usual street Point and Squirt runs.  Not a lot of high RPM stuff, but Carb$ are ea$y to change :-)
 
My point is there is a lot of cost effecient stuff you can do with Stroker money.  I looked at it a bunch and as mentioned, talked myself out of it over the last few months. 
 
Stroking is cheap torque/HP once you do the other stuff.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 4:06AM
Nitrous is cheap, too, LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote green 72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 9:38AM
cam range is getting a little high for a stock torque converter. with these gears and lift of the cam it will be a disappointing slug on the low end




Edited by green 72 - 10-March-2015 at 9:41AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 9:55AM
Build a Clevor ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 12:00PM
If your cam has any serious size to it, avoid/skip the e-street heads and start with one of the other choices. The E-street heads are going to need work to be useful. The valves/springs on them out-of-the-box are more or less placeholders.

Edited by Big Bird - 10-March-2015 at 12:03PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67gt5003119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2015 at 4:28PM
Well, FWIW I built a 408 clevor for a friend. Was a fairly inexpensive build. The first three gears are useless as this thing makes awesome power! Makes the 351W feel like a 6 banger.
I have a set of 2V heads converted for Windsor use and a street boss clevor intake I would sell. Shipping would be pricey, I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kychevyguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2015 at 3:09PM
Good information here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2015 at 12:58AM
Oddly, I talked to a guy from Knoxville last night about building a Clevor. He is interested in the CJ engine I'm selling and wants to build a Clevor some day soon.
Joe
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