small block advice |
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coyote23
New Member Joined: 10-July-2014 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: 22-January-2015 at 2:08PM |
OK so I have a351w and was wondering the HP and torque diff. Between 351w with bolt one or 408stroker and cost difference and more importantly would it b worth making stroker
Edited by coyote23 - 22-January-2015 at 2:09PM |
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Coyote
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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... all other things being equal increasing stroke will increase torque, but horsepower stays the same, a stroker moves peak torque and peak horsepower to a lower rpm. 393 cubic inches ........ 357 cubic inches 489 ft/lbs peak .......... 444 ft/lbs peak 536hp @ 5900 rpm ... 536hp @ 6500 rpm ==================== a stroker becomes very cost effective if you'd need a complete bottom end for the stock rebuild anyways, then it's just a matter of spending almost the same money for what you already need, but again w/o the top end support you won't see the full advantage the intake ports aren't too bad but the exhausts are ya know what would really put some smack into it, stock 351C-4V heads & intake with an intake spacer kit to make them compatible to finish with a 408 or 427 Clevor 4V or there are some pretty good 351W direct replacement heads that are pretty good
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72 GT Ute
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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yes, the exhaust ports are very restrictive, i noticed on my 351w just adding good shorty headers and swapping from 2' dual exhaust up to 2 1/2" made a noticeable difference in how it ran, like i had a slight off-idle hesitation and idle quality issues that were minor, but after just changing that exhaust alone , those issues are completely gone
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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coyote23
New Member Joined: 10-July-2014 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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OK I'm wanting to go 408 but not sure on what to get first engine build will b doing a lot of changes like headers exhaust etc
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Coyote
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coyote23
New Member Joined: 10-July-2014 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Or if I should keep 351w without bore
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Coyote
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2765 |
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Do the math on your choices, see what it will cost to get heads, intake, and matching camshaft to support the 408 etc.
Then check with Fordstrokers.com to see what it would cost to buy it complete and ship it to you. I think the 351W strokers run close to $3k for a complete short block, and last I knew the camshaft install was free if you also went to the long block and rockers etc. I had my 302(347) built three years ago, and the cost beyond their listed prices were about $300-$400 to include shipping, and installing head studs, oil pump, timing chain, rockers etc. Mine just lacks bolting on the intake and pans to install, I didn't have time this time to build an engine myself. |
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6059 |
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unless it's an aftermarket 'race' type block that is capable of extreme overboring you won't gain a whole lot of cubic inches from boring the cylinders, it's more of a restorative operation to repair cylinder bore wear
it's the crankshaft stroke that makes the self-funded local type racers are very cautious about using up cylinder wall thickness to un-necessary refreshing operations, they'll pay the $ for custom pistons in .005" 1/2 step oversizes to make the block last as long as possible let the condition of your block determine what needs to be done as far as reconditioning the cylinder bores ============== like I mentioned up above if it turns out you need to have the crank re-ground & new pistons anyway that same $ can go a long way into a stroker kit or replacements that make your own kit using your existing connecting rods... but a 351W can do pretty well with the stock 3.5" stroke too if that budget just isn't there ============== don't overlook the 'total package' meaning the engine trans & rear end, suspension, steering & brakes there are improvements you can make besides tweaking the motor that will make worlds of difference in overall enjoyment of the car |
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72 GT Ute
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coyote23
New Member Joined: 10-July-2014 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Ya I'm planning on doing suspension and steering with c6 trane nd 3:73 gears and engine is 3 yrs old
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Coyote
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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^^^X2
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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coyote23
New Member Joined: 10-July-2014 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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?
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Coyote
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14606 |
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i meant what max said (you posted before i posted)
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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coyote23
New Member Joined: 10-July-2014 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Gotcha I'm on path
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Coyote
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robot9000
Senior Member Joined: 02-September-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 505 |
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Your bang for buck is, IMHO:
Intake/Carb Cam AL Heads (you will never get same performace from stock iron as you will even cheap AL aftermarkets no matter what the old skool guys say). Stroking You need to build the base engine first. Get the block cleaned up, honed, prob a .30 over cleanup. New rings, pistons maybe (chance to get some compresson) main and cam bearings, seals, new Harmonic balancer. Get the basics good and solid. Make it breath first, like mentioned. Just spoke to Edelbrock guy this weekend and E-Street and Performer heads are same casting and machining, just different valve spring components. E-street is about $950/Pr, AFR, TrickFlow, Performer, about $1500/pr. I also looked at stroker kits and have slowly talked myself out of it. For the $1300 - 1500 a nice balanced set would run (Scat) I think AL heads are a much bigger bang for the same or less $$$. I'd love to have the $$ to do it all, but I can't. My build plan: Block cleanup - new cam and main bearings of course, .30 if the cyl need them. The usual stuff... Weiand Stealth intake (maybe summit stage 2, they look the same). Edelbrock 600CFM performer w/vac secondaries and ele choke. Lunati 20350711LK Roller Cam Kit (not 100% sold on this yet) Edelbrock E-Street Heads. Comp Cams Roller Rockers and Valve Springs (a variety at different price points) Pertronix Flame Thrower Dist and Coil (Already Installed) Summit headers (Already Installed) 2.5 dual exhause with cross over (already installed) Misc rebuild parts - water and oil pumps, harmoic balancer, timing marker Is that a 10 sec car? Nope!! Will it be fast? I think so. Can I make it faster in the future? Yep !! |
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1973 Gran Torino Sport
2010 Mazda 6 2007 Jeep Wrangler 2011 Damon Daybreak 35BD |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Depending on the cam, that 600 may be a little small. No way to really tell until you get it on the street. That sounds like an awesome Windsor build, though, and I am a die-hard small block guy. Cheaper to build, plentiful parts (thanks to the 5.0 movement), vast potential on displacement, lighter weight, etc.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
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351W at 100% efficiency at 6,000 rpm requires 609 cfm
MOST builds will only run about 80% and that requires 488cfm so the 600 Holley works perfect! A 408 Stroker at 100% efficiency at 6,00 rpm requires 708cfm at the 80% for a good built motor... 566 cfm so you could use a 650 and be good NOW if you are running a higher revving cam with a higher redline/shift point... 6500rpm is 613/737cfm at 80/100% respectively. Again you could use a 650 or even a 700. ALL of this HAS to play with the proper intake for the cam, heads and CR Without a set of aftermarket heads you will not reach even close to 80% efficiency here is the calculator... My machine shop uses the same one and he builds a lot of race motors too. LONG discussions about what I want Lola to do, what gears, tranny and tires she will run sets the RPM range and that is fueling the Cam/intake decision. Already ordered a set of FlowTek Aluminum heads too. |
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Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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•Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 272/280
•Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 221/229 •Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .549/.565 •LSA/ICL: 112/106 •Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd •RPM Range: 2200-6200 •Includes: Cam & Lifters (#72915-16) Part Number: 20350711LK This is the cam he is contemplating. Plenty of lift, good duration. Voodoo series. He is also using a Stealth intake along with Edelbrock aluminum heads. That is why I think it may need a bit more fuel - especially if the displacement increases. |
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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robot9000
Senior Member Joined: 02-September-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 505 |
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Yeah, it may be a bit under carb'ed but I will be doing the usual street Point and Squirt runs. Not a lot of high RPM stuff, but Carb$ are ea$y to change :-)
My point is there is a lot of cost effecient stuff you can do with Stroker money. I looked at it a bunch and as mentioned, talked myself out of it over the last few months. Stroking is cheap torque/HP once you do the other stuff. |
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1973 Gran Torino Sport
2010 Mazda 6 2007 Jeep Wrangler 2011 Damon Daybreak 35BD |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Nitrous is cheap, too, LOL.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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green 72
Member Joined: 27-April-2010 Location: Manchester,Iowa Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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cam range is getting a little high for a stock torque converter. with these gears and lift of the cam it will be a disappointing slug on the low end
Edited by green 72 - 10-March-2015 at 9:41AM |
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Dan 1972 GTS Formal
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Nuggets
Senior Member Joined: 07-November-2014 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 869 |
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Build a Clevor ;)
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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If your cam has any serious size to it, avoid/skip the e-street heads and start with one of the other choices. The E-street heads are going to need work to be useful.
The valves/springs on them out-of-the-box are more or less placeholders.
Edited by Big Bird - 10-March-2015 at 12:03PM |
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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67gt5003119
Senior Member Joined: 09-December-2012 Location: Gig Harbor Wa. Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Well, FWIW I built a 408 clevor for a friend. Was a fairly inexpensive build. The first three gears are useless as this thing makes awesome power! Makes the 351W feel like a 6 banger.
I have a set of 2V heads converted for Windsor use and a street boss clevor intake I would sell. Shipping would be pricey, I think. |
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kychevyguy
Senior Member Joined: 16-December-2013 Location: Lexington KY Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
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Good information here
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JT, USAF Ret./Architect
1971 Ford F100 "Lizzy" 1971 Cougar XR7 "Kitty" 1984 Chevy Silverado "Sylvia" 2009 Smart Fortwo Cabrio "Lil Dude" 2015 Volvo XC60 R-Design "Sven" |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Oddly, I talked to a guy from Knoxville last night about building a Clevor. He is interested in the CJ engine I'm selling and wants to build a Clevor some day soon.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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