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Starter heat soak?

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Anderslober View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Starter heat soak?
    Posted: 25-February-2023 at 10:18PM
I have been playing around with my cars’ carb/timing/etc.(351cj/4sp).
After the engine has run for while during adjustments, its quite hard to start again. If I wait 10-15min, then it starts fine again.
Is this common to Fords of the era?
I thought this problem didnt affect Fords, due to solenoid being ‘remote’.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 12:26AM
 true but the starter itself may be weak and not liking the heat?
JOHN
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74 VETTE CUSTOM
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77 CELICA CUSTOM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 1:05AM
If wanting or needing to replace your current starter, I'd recommend a PMGR starter. Usually gives additional room/clearance around exhaust.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 1:33AM
My original started did exactly what you were describing when it was on its way out.  The replacement starter installed had no issues with hot starts.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 2:35AM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

If wanting or needing to replace your current starter, I'd recommend a PMGR starter. Usually gives additional room/clearance around exhaust.


Ditto, the smaller starters from late model cars are much smaller, and stronger usually(brands etc). I don't know which starters have the same ring gear tooth count as the 70's Fords. But if you match the tooth count, and the bolt pattern of the trans matches close enough, then you have lots of choices. It's easy to wire up any starter even when the connections don't match, so ignore the terminal ends at the starter.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 4:24AM
Ok great. Recommendations?
On rockauto there are a few for manual trans. Any made in USA?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 4:27AM
See if your starter cable runs along the oil pan rail and it has to be insulated. If you have the cable run near the exhaust manifold that is your problem nine times out of ten. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 5:41AM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

See if your starter cable runs along the oil pan rail and it has to be insulated. If you have the cable run near the exhaust manifold that is your problem nine times out of ten. 


Wise thought, if the cable has been very close to the exhaust for a long time, it can damage it enough to reduce it's ability to flow high current. It might help to insulate it better or move it a little. Careful handling old wiring, get a feel for how hard and brittle it may be.



The old Fords had 158 tooth flex plates and flywheels I believe, wasn't that the figure? I'm used to the late Fords that are all 164 tooth. I have read of examples where people swap a newer starter into an old Ford, but I never remembered the details of which applications, and the tooth count etc. The starters it may not make a difference about the tooth count, but I don't want to state my opinion as a fact, that I'm just guessing about.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 5:46AM
Cables are all new! The big three. I was careful with routing near the exhaust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 10:07AM
Excellent, you have done well with all of the basic items along the way in rebuilding.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 10:23AM
I put a powermaster in my car and heat wrapped it. They say not to but I was under the car and it only cranked for a couple of seconds to start even after it sat for a month or so. My cables were all replaced and I was fortunate in that the insulating sleeve was in good enough shape to use over again. My problem was definitely the existing cable being run next to the exhaust manifold and I had already replaced the starter. When it was hot it barely cranked. As soon as it cooled down it would fire right up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2023 at 2:56PM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

I put a powermaster in my car and heat wrapped it. They say not to but I was under the car and it only cranked for a couple of seconds to start even after it sat for a month or so. My cables were all replaced and I was fortunate in that the insulating sleeve was in good enough shape to use over again. My problem was definitely the existing cable being run next to the exhaust manifold and I had already replaced the starter. When it was hot it barely cranked. As soon as it cooled down it would fire right up.


Very good. Was that Powermaster starter listed for your application when you bought it? That would make it easier to buy a small high torque model if it's already made for and listed that way.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2023 at 12:37AM
These days it's hard to say which brands are any decent.  Stick with a bigger name and hopefully you are okay.  I replaced mine about 10-15 years ago with a Champion rebuild and it's been good.  Rock Auto has Remy, AC Delco, Pure Energy.  I'd take a chance on one of those.   Powermaster is good too, and I think Summit carries them.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2023 at 4:19AM
If I remember correctly I bought the starter from Summit and it was listed for 351M/400, 429/460.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rtgreen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2023 at 6:54AM
Are you running headers or exhaust manifolds? I have Hooker Super Comps on my 4 speed 72' and the heat was causing the starter to be heat soaked. I wrapped the headers and this resolved my issue. 
72 Gran Torino Sport Q 4spd in Light Pewter Metallic

2012 Mustang GT (Brembo) 5.0, 6MT, 3.55s

1995 Bronco - 5.0 5spd.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2023 at 7:28AM
Just OE manifolds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2023 at 10:59AM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

If I remember correctly I bought the starter from Summit and it was listed for 351M/400, 429/460.


that starter will have a different attachment bolt arrangement, won't work for 351C

various applications have different bendix throw distances too, gotta be careful mixing applications Wink
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2023 at 4:31PM
Yes sir. I would not expect it to fit the small bell pattern. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2023 at 2:26AM
I remember how much that original starter weighed, because I had a lifetime warranty from AutoShack. I had to replace it about every year and a half, the LT headers probably were part of that. But that monster was very heavy, I'll find a good small alternative for both of my 351's this time.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2023 at 3:13AM
IIRC, a stock replacement starter for a 90’s 5.0 Mustang will work for a 351C
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2023 at 3:28AM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

IIRC, a stock replacement starter for a 90’s 5.0 Mustang will work for a 351C


So you think the late 302 part will work, which are 164 tooth on the ring gear? I'm very familiar with those, having owned five Mark VII's and three Explorer 302's. The Explorer starter is better than the Mustang, simply because they all had a ring terminal.

Before the late 90's, the starters used a spade terminal, which can become loose over time, so a no start caused by the connection. There was a TSB suggesting the terminal be changed, and many starters for Mustang 302's come with a short pigtail to change that to a ring terminal. The Explorer 302's all had a ring terminal on the starter. The case shape was slightly different too, they all will swap, but one leaves a slight gap at the hole where the starter meets the flexplate. I had three starters in hand years ago when I was getting them rebuilt. One was an older version of a 302 HO car, likely my 90 LSC, but I had them all done at the same local shop. I needed one for the 98 Explorer I was repairing, one was the older spare, and one I just got from a junkyard from an Explorer for $10.

Those usually cost $50 to rebuild back then, likely more now. But for an OEM starter that works great, it's a reliable choice.


Rock Auto's choices don't thrill me, fewer than I'd like and nothing specifically saying a rebuilt OEM unit. Among the new choices, the TYC brand sounds familiar, I have a couple of radiators of theirs(they do OEM stuff).
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2023 at 8:12AM
My understanding is the PMGR starters for newer Mustang and Explorer 5.0s is that they'll work with any small-block or 351C and any automatic flexplate regardless of teeth (the bellhousing will place it correctly), but will only work with a manual transmission if it's on a 157-tooth flywheel.

I guess I'll soon find out. I got a starter for a '95 Mustang 5.0 for my 351C/C6 and am just waiting for the weather to improve to install it. It's a new ACDelco unit. It has the pigtail and a page explaining the issue with the spade design. I bought it at Summit for $89.o9 instead of buying one of the "performance" starters for $200+. I figure ACDelco is a brand I've heard of, so hopefully there is at least some semblance of quality control. Rock Auto shows the same starter for $81.79, but Summit's shipping is so much cheaper that it made up for the price difference, AND it reached my front door in two days, while Rock Auto's cheapest shipping was still more and would have taken two weeks. (I could've had free shipping if I spent a few more dollars, but I couldn't think of anything else I needed to get.) It seems Rock Auto has really been sticking it to us on shipping lately.
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2023 at 8:41AM
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2023 at 10:42AM

Very good. So the starter circuit needs a small change of the battery cable and a new trigger wire, and the later starter works for the automatics generally. The manual cars have to be more careful to choose a starter for the right tooth count.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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