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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg73Oregon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Could use some diagnostics help
    Posted: 15-September-2022 at 4:48PM
Hey! What is this? "Stump-the-Chump Time"?
Here's the deal: some LEDs are dimmable, and others are not. (Notice this when you're trying to buy LED bulbs for your house).
One of the characteristics of LEDs is that they inherently have a much narrower voltage vs. brightness graph as compared to incandescent lights.  In fact, if you have ever played with a home dimmer switch that is connected to incandescent lights, you'll notice that as you turn the brightness up from off position the lamp will light at a specific point, but after it lights you can turn the brightness control lower than the point that it lit up. (The filament changes resistance from heat).
It sounds like that the filament bulb(s) are giving you a little more voltage/current adjustment than with the LEDs alone.
Most LED dimmer controls produce a constant voltage but varies the on-to-off time (called duty cycle).  Instead of a direct current (DC), it produces a 0 to a fixed voltage square wave. The dimmer circuit varies the pulse width from no pulse width (0 duty cycle) to full on (100% duty cycle).
Notice with some of the early cars with crude LED control. At night, turn your head while looking away from the taillights, and it looks like a strobe light.


Edited by Greg73Oregon - 16-September-2022 at 4:17AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-September-2022 at 4:10PM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

I think you just nailed the light problem. I think he has all led except one and it allows dimming that way. Pretty long resume and thanks for your service. I know I know, just doing your job.Clap 

 
Good memory 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-September-2022 at 4:09PM
Originally posted by Greg73Oregon Greg73Oregon wrote:

I wouldn't go so far as to say "expert".  But thanks for the complement. Thumbs Up
PS: LED lights can fire at voltages as low as 3.0V.
Did you replace the existing filament bulbs with LED that included a separate dimmer circuit?
If so, low voltages and spikes sometimes confuses the dimmer circuit.

Here's an interesting scenerio for you. I replaced the gauge lights with green LED bulbs. I used an incandescent bulb for the heater controls. They were too bright and distracting at night.
Anyway. With the incandescent bulb the LED bulbs are now dimmable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2022 at 5:37PM
I think you just nailed the light problem. I think he has all led except one and it allows dimming that way. Pretty long resume and thanks for your service. I know I know, just doing your job.Clap 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg73Oregon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2022 at 3:44PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say "expert".  But thanks for the complement. Thumbs Up
PS: LED lights can fire at voltages as low as 3.0V.
Did you replace the existing filament bulbs with LED that included a separate dimmer circuit?
If so, low voltages and spikes sometimes confuses the dimmer circuit.


Edited by Greg73Oregon - 12-September-2022 at 4:02PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-September-2022 at 11:06AM
Whoa!
That would definitely make you an expert. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg73Oregon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-September-2022 at 11:30AM
Boy! That's an odd one.  It's possible that the cause is due to "inductive kick-back" from either the started solenoid or starter motor - any component/part that has a magnetic coil. When a magnetic field collapses, a spike in the opposite current direction is momentarily generated.  Could be coupled through "mutual coupling" of wiring that is close to each other.
Among other things, spent 21 years in avionics performing FAA interference testing of avionics equipment...also, thermal, humidity, vibration, over/undervoltage, lightening, RF radiated/conducted emissions and susceptibility, Highly Accelerated Life Testing (HALT), Blah-Blah-Blah.  And, 12 years in airborne counter-warfare equipment production & testing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-September-2022 at 6:10AM
Good to know.
I did notice one oddity yesterday. When I start the car the turnsignal bulbs flicker on just a moment. Might be the LED's.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Greg73Oregon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2022 at 7:26AM
FYI: Sometimes when relay circuits are used (such as the relay circuit described above, electric radiator fan set-ups, high powered speaker amps, etc.) the ALT light may dimly glow with the engine (key) off.
The lights (sometimes referred to as "idiot lights") are just that, marginally useful and the circuits are basic - if that much.  I've found that a lot of the times this happens when electronic regulators are used (versus mechanical relay type).  
Should you find that you have this condition, it's an easy fix that will cost you a buck or so to remedy.  All you need to do is splice in a diode (sometimes called a rectifier) that will stop any bleed-back current to the "I" terminal of the alternator regulator.
Diode can be purchased from any electronic parts stores, Digi-Key, Mouser, Allied, etc.  Diode part number, such as 1N4004, 1N4005, 1N5402. etc. will work just fine.
This is the schematic and directions to add a diode:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kychevyguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-September-2022 at 2:55AM
I am glad that the sputtering is gone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 4:18PM
I hope that you get it fixed quickly now that you have a good idea of where the issue was.

That reminds me of the resistance in newer cars now that everyone is used to spark plugs that don't get changed for 100k miles. People regularly now don't change them at all, and well the vehicle, so the 2nd or 3rd owner has to figure out how old the plugs are. When you let the plug gaps reach never before sizes such as .150", guess what that resistance does? I had read of it, but I had my first experience of it with my last SUV, three years ago.

The coil pack on my 98 Explorer failed(hard miss on two cylinders). I had the truck for a month and first replaced the front suspension(4 bad BJ's). I worked on fluids and planned to do the plugs and wires soon. I needed the truck for work quickly and drove it as soon as I had checked fluids etc, but not the plugs. It ran fine for about four days, and then a miss began. I changed four plugs first, before work the next day. Four are very tough to get at without removing the inner fender cover. So I did the other four after work, but the miss had gotten worse through the day, and the other plugs didn't fix it. The next day I swapped coil packs, it has two, it's a batch fire waste ignition system. I changed the one that handled the two cylinders miss firing(CEL codes like P0301 and P0306), which fixed the miss. I threw that coil pack in scrap, and the other I saved as a spare). The gaps were all in the 0.135" to 0.160" range, way too high of course. The OEM coil packs are very reliable and powerful, but they will die with gaps that large.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hogfiddles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 1:11PM
It’s a similar issue to one we had on the Suzuki VL1500LC motorcycles.....the stator would burn out——- except it wasn’t really burning out.  The myriad of wire connections would go bad, and so a ‘bypass procedure’ was figured out...... solder a new wire in, bypass the next several connections and attach to the battery ( or wherever it was supposed to go... can’t recall at the moment), and all of a sudden the charging issue disappeared.    Yep, more connectors = more problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 12:38PM
Great news!! Consider running the relay setup, it's really important the module has a good power source. I have run a relay for my ignition for years, installed it back when I ran a pertronix. Those connectors can add a lot of resistance for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 12:27PM
She's Back.......

It's not perfected but the sputtering is gone. That power supply seems sufficient but mating an aftermarket bullet connect with that oem plug was a bad idea.

That said I'd like to thank the group for the information and ideas. Some of those are going to be incorporated.
Beer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 11:01AM
I tested that circuit with the car running and it delivers over 13V. It just so happens the choke is tied to that plug and made testing while running easy. 
I did find something out about the plug. The aftermarket bullet connector apparently makes poor contact inside that plug. I moved the harness and it skipped a beat. I don't know if a hard splice solves the problem but it is another discovery.
Also bypassed the fuel tank with a gas can to the pump. It's not the gas. Another one down. 😆

I haven't gotten to the carb. It's not running rich and I haven't excused the ignition just yet. I don't have a spare module so I may pick one up for sh*ts and giggles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 8:34AM
I was actually about to suggest the same thing to you. I was going to power my ignition from the same source you show in your pic, but decided against it because the voltage drop was too much.  I run a relay very similar to above, albeit, I am using a Trackboss ignition from TMI not Dura Spark, but the principle is the same.  FWIW, the ignition wire will trigger the relay even after going through a resistance wire.  Most of electonic modules need a good strong battery source to run correctly.  I know even pertronix modules can act up unless they get a clean 12 volts. 

As for the carb causing the issue, for it to cause a misfire, I think you'd need to be running super lean.  I am assuming your plugs look okay?  I have heard the same about Edelbrock carbs needing a regulator, but too much pressure usually overwhelms the needle and seat and leads to flooding/rough running due to excessive richness.  Again the plugs would show this, and you'd likely have some black smoke.  That said, a pressure regulator is probably a good idea.  I should get around to adding one to my car....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 8:26AM
I tried something that's failed.
I made a jumper wire to the unused key on male terminal in the fuse box it's actually +.1 volts compared to the battery when running and used that. Did not start. Plugged it back into the original spot starts. 
Note. That .1 volt is at 13.5 running.
 Even Edison discovered thousands of ways not to build a lightbulb. 😆
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 8:20AM
I like that idea
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Greg73Oregon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-September-2022 at 5:43AM
I replaced my points ignition with a Duraspark set-up with a Jegs 45,000V ignition coil (p/n:555-40100).  I used a relay to get full battery power to both the coil and module.
Used a standard automotive type of relay and socket and mounted it on the firewall.  Tapped +12V off of the power side of the starter solenoid & blended wire routing to the relay.
Here is the schematic:







Edited by Greg73Oregon - 09-September-2022 at 5:53AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 4:59PM
This is the power supply that I tapped for the choke and DSII.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 3:57PM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

[QUOTE=lynchster]

Did you do that module bias test then?  It says that if the voltage is not within + or - 0.1 volts of the battery voltage that the wire likely needs repair.  Maybe check all the connectors on each end of the wire to ensure not too much resistance.  I could see if that module is not getting adequate voltage that this could cause issue.
That was the test I performed. The first attempt looked like an issue but the key had been on and off all day testing things.
The retest after I ran it for a bit put it at .16V.
 .06 out of range but it's well over 12V.

I was looking over those sheets you posted and did another test. I'd like to start the car again but it's almost 11pm.

Battery down to 12.28V
Module bias - red 11.76
Voltage - green 12.17

The key on power supply is an unused plug I believe for A/C in cars that have it. I used it for the choke and the module since it didn't involve cutting and splicing. It currently test at 12.24V

Until I can start it again I'm going the bypass the key on power supply of the factory harness and go to the battery. Maybe there is too much of a drop there.

Edit: I did the bypass and it eliminates any meaning full voltage drop. All but matches battery voltage. Not what I was hoping for. It appears I'm going to have to irrevocably tap the harness somewhere.




Edited by lynchster - 08-September-2022 at 4:04PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 1:26PM
I've thinking about fuel system in the background.

It lacks a gauge and a regulator. The Edelbrock carbs (this one a 1411 750cfm) like about 5psi and a stock pump can do about 7-8 psi. It didn't seem to be a  problem running it under construction or for the first 80 miles but here we are.
Not certain how to reconfigure the fuel lines.
I do have a 600cfm Holley "Warrior" sitting around that was rebuilt years ago and never used but the fuel line is all wrong for that at the moment too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 12:23PM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

How old are the plug wires, and how many times have they been pulled off of the plugs? Those are all very fragile, and they aren't that expensive to replace on older cars.

It's all "new".  That said the vacuum advance diaphragm was torn anyway.
Checking spark plug resistance now. First 4 are between 5000 - 5100 ohm. Barring operational error I've just about cleared the ignition system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 12:18PM
How old are the plug wires, and how many times have they been pulled off of the plugs? Those are all very fragile, and they aren't that expensive to replace on older cars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 10:31AM
I'm going to keep on this and posting. Never know who it may help down the road.

To date:

Pulled the plugs, checked gaps, and condition.
   .044 and reddish. Ran fine before. I'll try going back to .035 as Rock suggested.

Swapped out the distributor cap.

Checked primary and secondary resistance of coil.

Checked voltage at coil key on and running.

Checked resistance of plug wires
     All under 50 ohms per foot

Checked vacuum.
     Steady 15hg but did need 1/2 turn out to steady it.

Checked compression.
     All between 174 and 179 psi

Replaced defective vacuum advance.
     Just because it was found

Checked for manifold / carb vacuum leak with starting fluid.
     Nothing

Could very well be the carb or the module but I'm almost certain it's a motocraft. I personally have never seen a module cause a misfire but one of my favorite sayings is "Don't tell me what it isn't until you can tell me what it is".



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 10:12AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

[QUOTE=lynchster]

Did you do that module bias test then?  It says that if the voltage is not within + or - 0.1 volts of the battery voltage that the wire likely needs repair.  Maybe check all the connectors on each end of the wire to ensure not too much resistance.  I could see if that module is not getting adequate voltage that this could cause issue.
That was the test I performed. The first attempt looked like an issue but the key had been on and off all day testing things.
The retest after I ran it for a bit put it at .16V.
 .06 out of range but it's well over 12V.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-September-2022 at 8:57AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:


The painless harness doesn't map out exactly like that but close enough. I found a .6 to 1 volt drop to the module red wire.
Battery 12.46V key off
Battery 12.11V key on

Module 11.5V key on

Checked it again after running the car and the module is receiving 12.3. Must have just be slightly low from testing.



Did you do that module bias test then?  It says that if the voltage is not within + or - 0.1 volts of the battery voltage that the wire likely needs repair.  Maybe check all the connectors on each end of the wire to ensure not too much resistance.  I could see if that module is not getting adequate voltage that this could cause issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-September-2022 at 3:26PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Ok, good that you checked that the '76 was the same parts as the '77.  Ford literally changed the electronic ignition setup on an annual basis until the Dura Spark II was released in 1977.

Here is a test chart for the 1976 Electronic Ignition.  I'd run these tests and report back.

The painless harness doesn't map out exactly like that but close enough. I found a .6 to 1 volt drop to the module red wire.
Battery 12.46V key off
Battery 12.11V key on

Module 11.5V key on

Checked it again after running the car and the module is receiving 12.3. Must have just be slightly low from testing.



Edited by lynchster - 08-September-2022 at 6:53AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-September-2022 at 3:20PM
I will be pulling the distributor in a while to check for wear to the gear. But there will nothing left to fall in that hole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve M. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-September-2022 at 11:06AM
Place a clean rag in the hole! 
Don't ask.. ...just trust me on this one
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