Video..weird 302 engine oiling issue |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 30-December-2014 at 11:12AM |
Here is a video of what I have going on.
Backstory on engine, Maybe 90k clean original quiet 1969 302 engine, pulled out, re-ringed, new rods and mains on stock crank, new aluminum heads, new HV oil pump , timing chain, hyd cam and lifters. Now very little oil makes it to top end of engine, and it has valve train noise. Lifter adjusted properly, geometry is fine. Oil pressure gauge says 70 psi. Oil galley plugs were not touched during engine assy. Other wise engine runs great. Ideas? http://vid300.photobucket.com/albums/nn27/ramair351/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-12/28DCC172-BDDD-4ACA-BE05-83BCCDA8337C.mp4 |
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
SO MANY things could be wrong.
Too much clearance in the bearings on the crank and rods too much clearance on the cam bearings too much clearance in the lifter holes Something in the oil feed galley to the lifters push rods not cleared out basically something restricting the flow or too much clearance somewhere leaking pressure preventing it from getting all the way up to the rockers. |
|
Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
|
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Pushrods new and clear. Lifter bores in spec, it has 70lbs of oil pressure. I might need to pull the front cover off next and look at those galley plugs
|
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Edited by dave302 - 26-February-2015 at 4:12PM |
|
Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Any way you could have pulled a galley plug on that front side under the timing cover and not re-installed it. That would have pressure just dumping oil out.
|
|
Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
|
Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
OOOOOOPPPPPSSSSS!!!!!
I should have watched the video first!!!! You are priming the pump and that is giving you the right psi. BUT... you need to have the distributor in the hole!!! All your oil is dumping out the camshaft feed galley back into the oil pan. The distibutor "seals" that galley with the lower shoulder of the shaft. When priming a motor you need an old distributor that you remove the cam gear and the top stuff then put a drill on the top of the shaft. |
|
Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
where are you tapped in reading 70psi? I don't have the right codec to play the vid, or something. MS diagnostic didn't find a problem gotta love technology
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
there's a 6-pop that needs the dizzy in the hole but I don't think the 302 does?
there would be another O-ring to seal that up
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
no dist needed in place for this engine to properly prime it. I'd pull the fuel pump and see if you can inspect the timing chain area for a galley plug left out. No bogging of the drill would indicate a large leak. any restriction in the system would bogg the drill.
|
|
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
|
|
75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
With the fuel pump out, try priming the pump again while looking in the fuel pump hole with a mirror.
|
|
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
|
|
75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Pete, both banks or just one bank with little oil? I'm betting on galley plug out. I believe they're freeze plug style plugs not screw in plugs.
|
|
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
|
|
kychevyguy
Senior Member Joined: 16-December-2013 Location: Lexington KY Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Agreed that no slowing of drill indicates no "pressure" in that things are flowing too freely. But since no oil is visible, then the oil is going someplace... ( I also thought a used distributor was required when priming the oil pump.) Can you shine a light down the hole and see anything when priming?
|
|
JT, USAF Ret./Architect
1971 Ford F100 "Lizzy" 1971 Cougar XR7 "Kitty" 1984 Chevy Silverado "Sylvia" 2009 Smart Fortwo Cabrio "Lil Dude" 2015 Volvo XC60 R-Design "Sven" |
|
75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
You won't be able to see anything from the dist hole.
|
|
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
|
|
californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
even if it's only oiling one side, 70 psi of pressure should be bogging down the drill, somewhat! but yeah looking in the fuel pump hole if a plug is out you should see a good stream of oil running down by the chain!
|
|
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
|
Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
an internal leak (galley plug?) or an obstruction (crap in a galley ?)
|
|
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
OK got the vid to play after restarting my box, I had it apart this afternoon for a RAM upgrade rockin 8gigs baby
so yeah, that drill shoulda been smacked down hard if it was pushing oil against pressure any chance a smart azz chevy dude with a couple too many brews in him made a funnay? |
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
here is a thread on one of the Mustang sites...
A lot of people just talking smack, facts not facts, advice, I did this or that etc... Here was one guys suggestion... (turned out to be the answer!) ok never ever ever sytart an eng unless you see oil out at least 1/2 of the push rods. turn drill for 15 secinds. rotate crank 90 degrees and drill for 10 sec exactly rotate 90 deg drill for 10. rotate 90 deg drill for 10 rotate 90 deg drill for 1-0. if you see no oil you have a prob. also, you should only have around 20 lbs at drill speed. 80 lbs strongly suggests a serious prob. your lifters do not need to rotate to get oil. check to see if push rods are solid. you must use non synthetic oil with zddp like break in oil or valvoline or add zddp to oil if there is less than 12% or 1200 ppm on the bottle. UPDATE.......UPDATE. Okay so I got antsy about just waiting around. So I took my old 1/2 drill and went back out I primed the motor for a 5 minutes excatly on TDC. Pulled off the even cylinder side valve cover. Rotated the motor 90 degrees. Primed for a other 5 minutes ...somewhere after about 1 minute I seen oil dripping down the rockers on 3 of them. After the 5 minutes I had about 2 more dripping. Pulled off the other valve cover and about 1/2 of them were dripping oil also. I would have done more but I Smoked My drill so that's all. Not all had oil to them yet but I would imagine they will when I reprime it this spring after I get a new drill lol. Guess I just had to be more patient...Thanks Guys. |
|
Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
|
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
My manual OP gauge is screwed in to the oil sender hole. I realize not all the pushrods will have oil coming out without turning the crank some. But I have had this engine running with no valve covers, dry and no oil mess like a normal engine. Could the valve be stuck in the oil pump?
|
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
GranMan I will try and take the fuel pump off and look, before I pull front cover, Regul8r thanks for the tips. I don't get the oil pressure either, you get the same reading while the car is running too, and I have tried a different gauge. I think the pressure is a big clue. If a galley plug was missing I should have nearly no pressure. If a galley was plugged I might get a reading like this....
|
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
at this moment I'm thinkin your 70 psi reading is only because of the pressure valve, retracting my comment that it may be stuck open
then again maybe it is, can't see it from here... more about how you got to this point, was the engine out of the car on a stand, inverted when the oil pump got installed to the bottom of the block? I've heard of pump castings cracking in the downleg between the mount bolts & the gearotor housing any chance the pump is not seated to the block? |
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
505 error on edit again
cold oil will give good pressure like your seeing even with a big internal leak
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
^^^ the more i'm thinking about it, the more i think your right pete about your last post, if it's just flowing out you shouldn't get any pressure or very little on the gauge, but an obstruction would! just had a crazy "off the wall" thought, are any of the main bearings different from each other that could cause the lifter galley feed to be blocked off??? i ran into that situation many years ago on an engine, but don't remember what kind of engine it was now. might sound stupid, but just a thought!
|
|
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
|
Regul8r
Admin Group Moderator Joined: 26-December-2007 Location: Sarasota FL Status: Offline Points: 6624 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I found a picture of the oil passages... the oil comes off the pump through the filter then splits to feed the crank and the cam/lifters. So only thing crank issues would give is more pressure if there was a blockage or less if the bearings were too loose. Doubtful as you had the engine running, that would have been noisy from immediate start up. Cam bearings might cause an issue but again the oil doesn't run through the bearings out to the lifters so more than likely not. Just seems there is an issue in the lifter oil feed galley.
Pull the timing cover and inspect everything as you dig. I would be inclined to start pulling the galley plugs(if they are there) and start inspecting real close. Power the pump with the drill and start looking from the very begining of the where the galley starts. Pulling the first lifter in line and looking for oil there with the pump turning is a good place to start. Edited by Regul8r - 30-December-2014 at 11:58PM |
|
Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME!
1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
|
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
So what's everyone think ? Pull the front cover to look at oil galleys first or pull the pan and inspect the pump?
More backstory: I did not assemble this engine, I bought the car with this already in it, the previous owner did this work and has told me what he did, this engine has a couple summers worth of driving on it, it runs good otherwise, makes some power, but has had valve train noise ever since, he put different cam lifters, aluminum heads and roller rockers , new pushrods, all trying to fix the problem. Then I bought it. |
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
another however small is that the valley should be flooded with oil, the towel looks dry
I don't think there's any oil in the lifter galleys? the Windsor oil system is different from the Cleveland so I'm not sure where the problem may be, possible the bottom end Is getting oil but the top is not I've also heard that on a 302, if the bolt holes in the front of the block are not clean when you tighten the front cover bolts the block bosses can bust out. not sure if that damage can get back far enough to an oil passage?
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
roller rockers probably means you can't get a lifter out with the heads on? I'm surprised you don't have that motor scattered to the 4 corners already! yup, tear into it until you find the mistake. could be Anything. maybe some hotrod jockey installed a restrictor where it ain't supposed to go? could be as simple as no galley plugs installed
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I think I may have found the problem, Just a teaser, I gotta check my theory, stay tuned! *HINT. I have not taken anything more apart.
|
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Pressure relief valve? gasket on oil pump?
Rodent living in the Oil Galley? (Oily, angry, hairball) I've primed windsors using a speed handle and I have always gotten oil out the pushrods fairly quickly.
Edited by Big Bird - 31-December-2014 at 6:04AM |
|
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
|
ramair351
Senior Member Joined: 08-May-2006 Location: west michigan Status: Offline Points: 1561 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
think i found the upper end oiling issue, and possible the noise issue. the guide plates are not deep enough for cam travel, they are some adjustable setup the PO installed. i was watching the sweep of the roller rocker tip over the tip of the valve, but i didnt check what the other end of the pushrod was doing. you can see the pushrod pop right out of the lifter cup, therefore not letting oil up to the top of the rockers and leaking out into the valley. i took a lifter out and ran the drill and oil was gushing out the lifter galley as it should.
|
|
-Pete
1972 montego GT 1970 Torino cobra SCJ 1970 mustang mach 1 1965 Falcon futura |
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I'd say you found an issue for sure but i'll be a little surprised if that's the oiling problem
no load on the drill & you should've had a valley full of oil
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |