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Wide Band O2 info??

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    Posted: 22-March-2015 at 1:33PM
Looking to get some info and leave this for later reference for others as well.
 
Lola is getting a 351W, 4BBL, 600 Holley with dual exhaust through a crossover/"X-Pipe".
She is being built for efficiency. getting an idle-5500/6000 cam and we want her to be tuned to near perfection for fuel mileage.
 
Going to put a wideband O2 sensor in her so we can do the fine tuning adjustments on the carb and get her dialed in.
 
WHAT sensor kit to get?
WHY?
What are the options and what to look for and why?
 
with only being 1 sensor set up should be put in the crossover/X-pipe to read both banks as they come together?
Is there a kit with 2 sensors that switches the gage between the 2? put them in the down pipe just below the header?
 
ALL thoughts, knowledge, explanations and info is HIGHLY ENCOURAGED!
Anyone have links to a good read on the theories and real world about them in a carbureted car?
Links, names and part #s are highly appreciated as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2015 at 1:42PM
crossover on an "H" pipe is more or less dead air (doesn't "move" as much as the main exhaust stream) and you will not get an accurate read there. I would go with 2 sensors, even if you have to set up a switched harness and a single gauge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2015 at 2:50PM
Carl,
 I run an "affordable" AEM wideband, here,
I have been very happy with it's operation and longevity(been over 2 maybe 2.5 years since I installed it). I only use one gauge/sensor, in a perfect world, installing 2 gauges/sensors would be the best and give you the most information. I will tell you with just one gauge, I take my eyes off the road enough as it is and processing the readings in an on-going manner will sometimes be too laborious(seeking carb tuning perfection). Having 2 gauges to read and get data from would cause me to go nuts(if trying to get the perfect tune at all times). I installed mine just downstream of the header collector flange(I actually should have installed the sensor in the header, but I am not drilling and welding the sensor bung onto a $700 set of headers) where the header extension attaches on my exhaust system(all 3" tubing with X-pipe), I did this on both sides to check if there was a noticeable difference in AFR #'s between both banks. The wideband can, without a doubt, help with tuning a carburetor. It allows you to tell where to pinpoint your efforts, whether just off idle, transition slot, air bleeds, jets, accelerator pump shooters or cams and etc, you will just need to know how to interpret the data/readings and how/what changes need to be made. Good luck with your choices. Todd  
 
 BTW, once you get the engine in and running with the WB installed, here is an EXCELLENT forum for carb tuning info and help.


Edited by aquartlow - 22-March-2015 at 2:54PM
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2015 at 2:56PM
I am reading and researching now... SO CONFUSED! lol
All the different types and inputs outputs this data logger that program compatability etc...
I just want to see my AFR so I can tune the carb with bigger/smaller jets and see when to bring in the secondaries and how fast. ALL of that is fully adjustable on a Holley with jets, cams and springs.
 
My X-Pipe is actually a crossover where ALL the exhaust comes through... something like this...
 
but my reading is saying it should be closer to the engine. That means 2 Sensors, one on each bank and then the switch over and data logging and and and and... BLA BLA BLA!! I just want to see my AFR to KNOW I am running right! Not to lean and not to rich. If I can run 3 sizes down on the main jets to get a good AFR at cruising speed then I GAIN in the MPG cruising category.
I just want the best I can out of the motor and the car.
A jet size or 2, a degree or 2 in the timing, a step up or down in the plug heat range or gap.
I know there are so many other issues that will affect it and I am FULLY aware of all of that!
 
 
When I had my 80 Mustang I had an 88 GT 5.0 motor with a 60s era Shelby 4bbl intake and a Holley center squirter 660 carb, AOD tranny, GT headers and straight dual exhaust(no crossover), 8.8 from that same 88 GT with 3.08 trac-loc, 275/60/15 on the GT turbine style wheels.
The shop I worked in was a Mass Inspection station, I was a licensed inspector, I used the tail pipe sniffer to tune the car. I had the front jets LEAN enough that my hot rod idled and ran cleaner then the newer cars I had to inspect on the machine. This took a few jet changes to get the numbers down and find the happy medium where she ran great but had clean numbers!
THEN I set it up so that the secondaries came on WAY LATE! I could run around town, cruise the highway and even play a little without the secondaries opening and sucking the tank dry. I learned where this was and was able to use it to my advantage. Rolling down the highway just cruising at speed, she ran low RPM and clean, I got 26MPG on 1 of my trips! BUT, hit the gas and open the 4bbl and she would SUCK THE TANK DRY! especially when they opened at the higher RPM, never smoked, never bogged FLAWLESS car! When I sold it, the guy took it to the track the next weekend and ran in the 12s with it(supposedly).
 
NOW, without access to such a machine daily to experiment with... I need the Wide Band O2 set up to see this same info in real time in order to re-jet and tune. ALOT of things to work on but with the live feed AFR we can see what is happening as we adjust the timing and the carb. Get Lola running RIGHT!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2015 at 3:00PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Carl,
 I run an "affordable" AEM wideband, here,
I have been very happy with it's operation and longevity(been over 2 maybe 2.5 years since I installed it). I only use one gauge/sensor, in a perfect world, installing 2 gauges/sensors would be the best and give you the most information. I will tell you with just one gauge, I take my eyes off the road enough as it is and processing the readings in an on-going manner will sometimes be too laborious(seeking carb tuning perfection). Having 2 gauges to read and get data from would cause me to go nuts(if trying to get the perfect tune at all times). I installed mine just downstream of the header collector flange(I actually should have installed the sensor in the header, but I am not drilling and welding the sensor bung onto a $700 set of headers) where the header extension attaches on my exhaust system(all 3" tubing with X-pipe), I did this on both sides to check if there was a noticeable difference in AFR #'s between both banks. The wideband can, without a doubt, help with tuning a carburetor. It allows you to tell where to pinpoint your efforts, whether just off idle, transition slot, air bleeds, jets, accelerator pump shooters or cams and etc, you will just need to know how to interpret the data/readings and how/what changes need to be made. Good luck with your choices. Todd  
 
 BTW, once you get the engine in and running with the WB installed, here is an EXCELLENT forum for carb tuning info and help.
 
EXCELLENT info thanks, the reviews are great on it too!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2015 at 3:03PM
The AEM has no data-logging feature, it is "cheap" but has been very reliable in it's operation and readings(the engine will tell you when it's too lean and the digital AFR gauge will confirm it). It is a "no frills" unit, but I'd buy another if mine quit tomorrow.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-March-2015 at 1:22PM
Another AEM here.. No complaints.. Have one in my Cougar and my F100

Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2015 at 1:22AM
Wow, those are nice setups. I am going to run EFI, so O2 sensors are mandatory for proper operation. My bungs are going into both pipes, as the factory setup would be. No gauge, unfortunately, just the ECM.

Years ago, I ran an '88 GT with a modified Speed Density setup. Not the MAF type. On my particular setup, the previous owner had modified the electronics so that you could disconnect the battery, let the ECM power down, then hook it back up to customize the fuel/air ratio. By no means was this an accurate way to do it, but it worked reasonably well. When you hooked the battery back up, you could pump the pedal a few times then hit the starter to richen the ratio. Great for having some Saturday night fun, but it did run rich. To correct the ratio, we would unhook the battery, let the ECM die down, then NOT touch the pedal when restarting it. It would hunt for the proper ratio for a couple of moments before settling down into a lean condition. I'm very sure that a modern MAF unit would be far superior to my old one, though.

By using the AEM setup, you can run a carburetor and enjoy great drivability and economy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2015 at 1:38AM
I purchased the Innovate LM-2 kit. It is nice. It has a ton of options for data acquisition, however I would not recommend buying one.

Honestly, I never have used any of the data acquisition. On our older cars, the data would be meaningless without a ton of other parameters to make it meaningful.

For example, vacuum, throttle position, engine RPM just to name a few.

On an OBD equipped car, I think that data is easier to come by. On ours, one would have to add sensors that would turn things like vacuum into a voltage to be fed into the unit.

It is a good unit with a ton of potential. They seem to be a good company that makes a good product. However, it is just too much for what I am willing to invest.

The only good thing about it is that since it is a handheld unit, I can transfer it and the O2 sensor between vehicles. So in one sense, the $500 unit can cover multiple vehicles (instead of $200 per vehicle). So there is one advantage to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OleDutchD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-March-2015 at 10:30AM
Running an Autometer Pro-Comp Ultra-Lite (4378). It has a single sending unit which I find more than sufficient. This unit features outputs to enable data-logging (if you desire) and some switches on the face to allow you to set it up for your own preferences. The suggested mount location in the exhaust is a set distance from the collector merge.
One of the best investments I've made in a while. Very useful/educational as it gives you real-time feedback. Showed me what a pig the 750DP was and how much cleaner the new QFT runs (no loss of performance, more efficient).

Good luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SirDan89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2015 at 4:29PM
I've been running a innovate LC-1 for a few years now. I ran megasquirt with it for a while, I did ruin a sensor IDK if that is because the motor burned some oil or if it was a bum sensor. The nice thin was the sensor is the same as one on a VW I forget the specifics. Anyway got a new sensor eventually went from a 22re to a ford 302 with a carb.

I Just ran it into one side, I really don't think you need two to tune a carb up nice. FWIW I heard good things about AEM and that was my second choice, I think i just bought this one because it was cheaper. The best price i found was on ebay.

Setting it up was pretty easy too, not a whole lot of head scratching. When my sensor went it took little troubleshooting to confirm.

Overall I am happy and will likely buy another for my other car. 
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