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Inkara1
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Posted: 29-February-2024 at 7:28PM |
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Took it for a short drive after bending back the spring tab. Pinging sound is still there, though maybe a tiny bit less. But all my horsepower is gone. To do my 0-60 run, I stop at a stop sign, get the stopwatch up on my phone, and floor the gas pedal. I did that tonight and it backfired through the carb and died.
I got out the timing light, and I'm still at 6 degrees btdc initial. I grabbed a heavy tool box to hold down the throttle, and found that my mechanical advance after bending the tab is such that it's only at 12 degrees btdc at 1,500 rpm, which is the rpm where it's doing 40 mph in top gear. Even if the vacuum advance is adding its full 8 degrees, I'd only be at 20 degrees btdc at 1,500 rpm at cruise. Surely it shouldn't be pinging in one cylinder at just 20 degrees at 1,500 rpm, should it? Is there anything else that could make a loud tick noise at cruise between 40 mph and 50-55 or so (maybe higher, but road and wind noise gets too loud), which is 1,500 to 2,000 rpm, when vacuum is about 15 inches or so on the gauge, but goes away when I give it more throttle OR less throttle? Speedometer cable? I did one drive where I hadn't hooked it back up correctly after changing the instrument cluster bulbs to LED, and I could hear the cable end spinning against the back of the speedometer hookup, but also heard the ticking noise separately when I was doing 40 as indicated by my phone's GPS speedometer app. Exhaust leak? I'd think that would get louder when I give it more throttle. I do have a vibration when it revs between 1,500 and 2,000 in park or neutral but that I don't feel when driving at those RPMs in any gear. I think that might be the torque converter. I don't remember that vibration happening before I pulled the transmission to change the front input seal and pump gasket. Can I remove the nuts and push the converter back far enough to turn it 180 degrees and reinstall the nuts without having to unbolt the transmission from the engine? I did try removing the nuts and reinstalling them by torquing them in a criss-cross pattern rather than in a circular pattern to ensure it was straight. But could this vibration also be the source of my noise? Seems weird that it would instantly stop making the noise with any change in throttle. I did order a new intake gasket set and it'll be in tomorrow morning (Friday), but I don't think the weather will let me install it this weekend. Other than changing that, I'm not sure what else to do.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 01-March-2024 at 5:54AM |
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I was going to suggest to use a piston stop to check TDC is correct on your balancer, but based on your latest post maybe it is not ignition ping? When did the ping start? Was it around the same time as the vibration? Do you get the noise under load only or will it make it when revving in neutral? The speedometer cable can make a noise, but it usually sounds like it's coming from inside the car, not the engine. I would also agree that exhaust leaks generally get louder with more throttle, and sometimes go away with some heat in the engine. If you have exhaust manifolds, they do crack, in particular the passenger side. I don't think the convertor would be the issue, unless it was bad/out of balance and reorienting it likely wouldn't fix that. You could unbolt the converter and try firing up the engine to see if it still has the vibration. Can you do a video so we can hear the sound too? On the intake, if you do have port mismatch, I am not sure how great of a seal you will get with the gaskets. That could be part of the vacuum leak issue. 15 inches seems a little lower than what I would expect for a stock 351C 2-V engine at low RPM.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 01-March-2024 at 8:10AM |
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I've replaced the harmonic balancer. When I put in the new distributor, I verified TDC by rotating it until the pointer was at 0, then stuck a camera in the No.1 cylinder spark plug hole. It's either right on or extremely close.
I don't really notice the noise in neutral. Maybe a few taps here and there, but nothing like when it's on the road. So I was searching up the symptoms last night, and apparently some guys on a Subaru forum had similar and it turned out to be the rod bearings. Is that a possibility here too? I uploaded an unlisted youtube video where the noise actually comes through:
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 01-March-2024 at 9:41AM |
The TDC is the one for #1 cylinder on its compression stroke. Put your finger over the hole as it approaches TDC, if it doesn't blow your finger out then it's on the exhaust stroke(the exhaust valve is open at that time).
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 01-March-2024 at 11:56AM |
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So I think I have an idea to determine if I'm getting a little rod knock. I think I'll pour in a quart of Lucas oil stabilizer. If the noise goes away, I know it's time to do bearings. If the noise doesn't go away, then I'll just change the oil to get the Lucas back out of it (it's probably due for a change anyway) and keep searching for my cause. I can get a set of rod bearings for like $9. I already have main bearings because of where I replaced the thrust bearing, so the rest of the main bearings are still in the box ready to install. I figure the Lucas is relatively cheap enough that I can do this test without having to take the time to do the work to change out the bearings until I know that's the actual issue.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Inkara1
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Posted: 01-March-2024 at 5:20PM |
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So the noise didn't go away with the Lucas oil stabilizer. My oil PSI went up by about 20, so I know it mixed in. I saw some youtube videos where it quieted down rod knock, so I'd think it would do the same for me.
So I'm happy I don't need to go through the work of changing the bearings, but sad that I'm no closer to finding the issue. On a C6 transmission, can I get the converter pushed back far enough to be able to run the engine without it hooked up without having to unbolt the bellhousing from the engine?
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 01-March-2024 at 11:06PM |
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That sounds almost like valvetrain noise to me, not ignition pinging. Do you have a mechanics stethoscope to see if you can get the sound to replicate while in park and while you listen in various areas of the engine? Another thought, check the flexplate to make sure it's not cracked. Thar can make noise too. As for the torque converter, you probably can't get it back far enough without unbolting the bellhousing, unless the guy who did the swap used bolts instead of studs and nuts.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 02-March-2024 at 4:52AM |
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I do have the stethoscope, and I don't really notice a difference in the noise wherever I put it on the valve covers when it's idling in park. I guess I could put the heavy tool box against the gas pedal to hold it at a higher RPM. If I do hear something, is the next step to pull the valve cover and move the pushrods to feel for looseness, then rotate the engine by hand until the valves are actuated and see if the pushrods are loose at that point?
When I changed the valve seals, I torqued the rocker arms to the head to shop manual spec (non-adjustable). I did so after I did each cylinder, so the torquing was always done with the valves not being opened. I have a leaking rubber valve cover gasket, so I need to swap the gaskets anyway, so I guess I could retorque the rocker arms while the covers are off. Anything special to torquing them? Is it best to torque with the valves at rest or with them opened? For inspecting the flexplate, do I just remove the converter nuts, push it back as far as I can, and then shove the inspection camera up there? (It looks like a stock converter, with studs and nuts.)
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 02-March-2024 at 5:30AM |
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the result of ping / detonation is the rod bearings getting knocked out, then you might hear a different noise until / before the bearing shells overlap themselves and lock up the works. that's not a good day. i can't hear the noise in your vid as i'm 1/2 deaf but i take your word for it. like Vince i'm stuck on how a basically stock (cam, heads, pistons) 2V can be in an untunable ping situation, it's not normal. nearly impossible unless something is not as it is believed to be? have you ruled out the chance that the heads are closed chamber Aus 302C ? an easy tell-tale sign is the top of the end head bolt boss is square rather than round
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72 GT Ute
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 02-March-2024 at 5:39AM |
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and i'll throw this out there, my winter daily salt eater has what i believe to be an extremely broken flex plate. it makes a of a racket that i suppose could be on a lesser scale mistaken for ignition ping? as it is it sounds as if the engine identifies as a diesel and who am i to question that? it sounds like it's ready to kick out a rod but shows good oil pressure and goes down the road 80mph playing it's beat. fine with me, keep rollin baby, eat that salt! keeps my summer daily from having to chew on itif the flex is cracked up near around the crank bolt circle you might still get a glean on it through the inspection cover with a flashlight? retorquing the nonadjustable rocker arms won't change anything but if you're game have a look at how much preload is on your lifter plungers. as you described go through the firing order each cylinder at a time with the lifters on the cam base circle. i really need to find out for myself where that is but until then i guess TDC on the compression stroke is generally accepted? so loosen the 2 rockers on the cylinder that is in TDC firing position (chalk the balancer for each 90*ish) and now it's time to get a feel for what is called Zero Lash. this is when the rocker is just snug enough that any more tightening of the bolt will begin to depress or preload the lifter plunger, send a couple minutes getting the feel, just the bare socket or even no socket just your fingers turning the rocker bolt and your other hand your fingers slightly rotating the pushrod back & forth. snug the bolt and you'll feel a miniscule drag on the pushrod, that point is zero lash. paint pen or chalk mark the bolt on 1 side your choice top bottom whatever so you can count how much revolution the bolt turns from zero lash to bottom tight. maybe not necessary to go to TQ spec but snug hard enough that the bolt has effectively stopped turning. the distance from Zero Lash to bottom tight is your lifter plunger preload. bolt rotation can be converted to decimal fractions of an inch by using the thread pitch of the bolt and a little math. IIRC the bolt is 5/16-18 so 18 threads (revolutions) per inch. 1 / 18 = .055" per 1 full revolution of the bolt. if the bolt turned 1/2 a turn from Zero Lash to bottom tight your LPP is .0275" give or take because of the rocker ratio and i've never sat down and figured out how that affects the deal. document each rocker and you can shim the pedestal to equalize your preload. shim kits are available or you can use almost any metal to make your own, some guys even use brass and that gets criticized but i guess it works. sandwiched between the pedestal and the head it doesn't take abuse https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6529-a302/make/ford Edited by Rockatansky - 02-March-2024 at 6:14AM |
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 02-March-2024 at 9:47AM |
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I wish I could check stuff like that today, but it's outrageously windy here, and the wind always sucks a bunch of stuff out of the garage that I have to chase down since I live in a neighborhood. I hope to check the flexplate as soon as I can.
Would flat-top pistons be stock for a 1972 2V engine? Mine look exactly like the one in this ebay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/166319298175?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1LwXORTiyQ2GdVHpKSB8QPQ24&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166319298175&targetid=1644837435963&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9031792&poi=&campaignid=20125739985&mkgroupid=149128855676&rlsatarget=pla-1644837435963&abcId=9312975&merchantid=6336834&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAuYuvBhApEiwAzq_YiZJ-QgwFOhf-npTmC-QuUkZOPdhKltQHrW9dn-ok_9LzhDcgT3-XNBoCus0QAvD_BwE Also, I can verify my heads aren't Australian 302C. The numbers on the top corners appear to have been ground off, but the dot is still there. What's left of the base of the number looks like it's probably a 2. Plus, the exhaust manifolds have a part number that returns to a 2V setup. My understanding is that you can get a 4V intake to seal against 2V heads, but absolutely cannot get a 4V exhaust to seal.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 02-March-2024 at 10:09AM |
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so the end head bolt bosses are round at the top? IDK what the Aus heads did for the 2 & the dot yes all 1972 engines came with the same flat top pistons. today's calculation a 72 2V should make 8.6:1 static squeeze, it would take a Very small cam to make trouble from there
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 04-March-2024 at 6:15PM |
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So I can't quite tell if there are any cracks in the flexplate after pulling the converter back as far as it will go and sticking my inspection camera up there, but I do wonder if the plate is bent. With the converter all the way back, I can't get a nut started on a stud through one of the holes but can through at least one other hole. I took video of the starter moving the plate with the inspection cover off, and it almost seems to have a little warp like an LP record. Does it look that way to you?
I also verified that I have a C4 flexplate with the C6 transmission. I pulled the starter to put the camera in there, and while I had it that way, I stuck a finger in there and felt the offset the C4 flexplate has. As far as I've been able to find, the flat part of the C4 plate is nearly 1/4-inch closer to the engine block and the converters are sized along with that. Using a C4 transmission with a C6 plate will bolt up and work, but will press against the trans pump insides and press the crankshaft against the thrust bearing. But I have the opposite mismatch: C6 transmission with C4 flexplate. I can't find any info on whether that would damage anything, or whether the converter would just engage the pump a little less. I know my pump works because the trans shifts and I have a temperature gauge on the trans fluid, which heats up and cools down depending on situation. So does it look like it's worth buying a new flexplate? Would it be worth changing the converter too?
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 07-March-2024 at 1:12PM |
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well it sure looks a little more wonky than i'd like, have you dug into it deeper yet?
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 07-March-2024 at 7:13PM |
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As much as I can with only being able to pull the converter back less than half an inch. I did order a new flexplate (a correct one for the C6 instead of a C4 plate) and a Hughes 2000 stall converter. I figure it should stall *a little* higher than the stock one, but I didn't want to go to 2500 because it's still a 351C-2V at heart, and because I'd ultimately like to tow with it.
I plan to install them on Saturday. I got a couple of 24-inch 7/16-14 threaded rods, so I figure I'll put those in place of the bottom two bellhousing bolts, then just pull the trans back as far as I can get it with the jack still jacked up. I hope that's far enough to swap the converters so then I don't have to undo the exhaust or the parking brake cable, thus saving lots of time. Then the threaded rods will help align it back into place. I really hope it gets rid of the noise and the 1500-2000 RPM shake in park.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Inkara1
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Posted: 07-March-2024 at 9:03PM |
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One thing I forgot to mention: the first time I undid the torque converter nuts to pull the transmission so I could change the front seals, the nuts were so tight I had to use an impact driver to break them loose. I tighten them to 30 ft-lbs (in the spec range listed in the shop manual), and at that torque, they're WAY easier to loosen. I even put on new nuts, and from 30 ft-lbs, it's not hard to break them loose. It was after that time I pulled the trans that I noticed the 1500-2000 RPM shake. I wonder if way overtightening the converter nuts can warp a flexplate, particularly if they're not tightened in a criss-cross pattern.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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californiajohnny
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Posted: 08-March-2024 at 12:03AM |
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flexplate flexes to match the precision machined torque converter
![]() but if you lost a nut that could throw it out of balance... |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 09-March-2024 at 10:09PM |
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New flexplate and converter are in. The noise didn't go away -- in fact, it seems louder and it does it on acceleration too. Also still have the shake between 1,500 and 2,000 RPM.
The new converter has bolts instead of nuts, so I could check if the vibration goes away with it disconnected. But I'm wondering now if this is caused by my crankshaft that has outrageous end play because the thrust bearing wore a groove into the crank as deep as the bearing itself. Either that or check the valvetrain to make sure everything is torqued to spec.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 3:25AM |
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That thrust bearing and the crank end play are the biggest worries. That is usually created by a mismatched torque converter, or improper install of the TC, not into the pump all the way. Look at the old oil carefully, cut open the filter and see how much metal is in it. Usually with big end play, the engine has to come out and be rebuilt due to the bearing and crank wear. The torque converter should move freely when the nuts are not on, back and forth. The crank should move a little too, but just a hair, the thrust spec is likely around .006 as a guess, if it's 1/4" then it's bad.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 4:28AM |
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crankshaft free end play is called out at .004" - .010" in the factory shop manual |
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 4:54AM |
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There's definitely forbidden glitter in the old oil. The end play is around 1/8 inch. I just changed the oil this past week to get the Lucas oil stabilizer out, and cut open the filter and still have ground pepper size bits of bearing in the filter. The weird part is the shake started after I pulled the trans to replace the front main and pump seals, and I'd think if it were the crank causing the shake, it would have done that before the trans came out. The trans did fall off the jack at one point, but between me grabbing it as it was falling and it landing on the exhaust pipe instead of the concrete, it shouldn't have been much of an impact.
The car originally had a C4 in it but got switched to a C6 at some point (with the C4 flexplate). I wonder if something happened to the C4 that made the converter swell. When I pulled the oil pan to change the rear main seal, I found the chunks of bearing foil from the thrust bearing in the pan. I swapped the thrust bearing out for a new one so I'd at least have some bearing material in hopes to keep the crank from rubbing the block. I had been worried that the damage was something I did, but I still had the oil filter that was on the car when I got it, so I cut it open and found bits of bearing in there. It definitely needs a new crank, but I drove it ~500 miles last October, and it used barely any oil, so it seems like the rings are good. But with the trashed crank, I didn't want to put in the time/money to replace all the bearings.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 5:35AM |
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pull it out, save what you can. what do you think about the crank being bent?
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 6:00AM |
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Could the crank being pushed forward cause it to bend in addition to the thrust bearing wearing a groove into it?
The idle is a little bit shaky in park/neutral. I bought a compression tester but hadn't gotten around to using it yet. But the power feels fine, so it seems like I'm running on all eight cylinders.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 8:45AM |
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it's amazing what will run fairly well but when you get your peepers on it you're like How The did that work?from what you say about the excessive crank free play nothing good can happen from this point if you keep running it
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72 GT Ute
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 10:14AM |
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Ditto. If earlier work resulted in stopping the crank from being forced forward into the thrust bearing, it might be possible for it to survive a decent while. But the thrust bearing only will prevent contact of the journal side surfaces until a certain amount of wear. Then it's eating the crank and not much will make it unusable later. With the symptoms now, it seems time to try to get into it and see how bad it is.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 1:30PM |
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It's definitely bad. I've just been trying to kick the can down the road until the budget allows for a replacement. That's also why I was asking last year on the forum here how hard it would be to switch to a 351W, since those seem to be much more common and easier to find.
My main worry is that the Fairlane Club shows I go to can be pretty far away. It's a six-hour drive to the new Nor-Cal meet in May, and then the one I'm hosting in October in the LA area is 2.5-3 hours away. I just want to be reasonably sure the bottom end won't explode on the freeway hours away from home.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72 RS 351
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Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3443 |
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 1:52PM |
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If you can stay with the Cleveland it would be easier to refresh it than a full engine swap. If the block and crank are not hurt, the rest is not hard to manage, any good Ford machine shop can handle it. Your car is set up for it so it's just about the engine itself.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Inkara1
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Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Posted: 10-March-2024 at 4:23PM |
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That's the thing. The crank has a groove worn into it that's as deep as the thrust bearing.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Inkara1
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Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Posted: 12-March-2024 at 5:49PM |
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Something popped in my head at 3 this morning while I was several hours into lying in bed trying to get to sleep. Last time I had unhooked the exhaust pipes from the manifolds, I used a copper high-temp RTV to supplement the seal when I put them back. When I took them off on Saturday to pull the trans, I could see a black soot mark in the seal area. When I put it back together, I didn't RTV it this time, and now the noise is louder and also shows up during acceleration. I had thought an exhaust leak would be just RPM based instead of load based, such that it wouldn't go away when I give it more gas, but maybe...? I looked and the only way I could get a design that uses a gasket is to switch to headers, which I don't want to do until I know which engine will be in the car permanently. Any tips to better seal that connection besides a thicker bead of the copper high-temp RTV?
Also, could replacing the engine and transmission mounts help with the shake between 1,500 and 2,000 RPM in park/neutral? I haven't gotten a good look at the rubber on the motor mounts. The rubber on the trans mount *looks* OK, but I also don't know what I might be searching for on that.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 6780 |
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Posted: 13-March-2024 at 12:42AM |
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It could be an exhaust leak, but the bigger issue is the crank end play. I had forgotten about the end play on your engine. I am no expert on engine building, but I agree with Rockatansky that that needs to be addressed. Running otherwise is not a good idea, especially since you plan to tow and travel long distances.
I am wondering I the previous owners swapping of transmissions buggered up the crank. I know you said the c4 flex has clearance, but maybe there was a combo in there that put too much pressure on the crank. It sounds like who ever owned your car before really cobbled things together, and now you are cleaning up his mess. I think the engine needs to be pulled and a deeper dive inside it needs to happen. Maybe a used 351 is a good alternative. Or even a 400 or 460 if you can find a donor car. Any midzied 70s full frame Ford or Tbrid and Lincoln Mark IV and V can supply what you need for a swap. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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