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72 RS 351
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Posted: 13-March-2024 at 4:44AM |
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The manifold connections can be helped with a normal other application donut seal. People often get them from any parts store that can show their variety of sizes. I would take the engine back apart soon, that crank wear is too much, it won't run like that for long before it creates more damage.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Inkara1
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Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Posted: 13-March-2024 at 11:55AM |
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I found a crank for $250 on Facebook Marketplace, though hopefully the seller will ship because it's in Hollister, so that would be like a six-hour drive one way. It's marked as being ground 20 under on the rods and mains, so I'd need matching bearings. Would I still need to get it balanced somehow since it's been in a car before? I'm consuming barely any oil, probably losing more at the valve cover, and see no blowby smoke when running with the oil cap off, so I think the rings are good. Valve seals are new. Oil pump is new. But then, I believe it has the original 3-groove 2-piece valves, which I've been assured are guaranteed to break off in the cylinder and ruin the block and head. Cam seems OK, and since it appears no one makes a flat-tappet cam anymore that doesn't wipe a lobe during break-in, I'd almost want to stick with the 50-year-old cam despite its smog-era specs.
The thing with engines from private sellers is not knowing if they're hiding the same issues (whether known or unknown to the seller). Or there's a fully rebuilt 351C-2V on eBay from "Five Star Engine Exchange" out of Arizona for $5,995 with free shipping if paying that price. Only thing is they don't say if the valves have been replaced (just that the heads have been completely remanufactured including new guides and seals and performance 3-angle valve job). So almost $6K, which I think I'd struggle to get the OK from the wife on. There's also a 351C-2V long block from Mabbco out of Texas for $2,839.98 plus $525 shipping, but same question about the valves.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 14-March-2024 at 1:26AM |
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Are you planning on pulling the engine? I think you got to tear into it and see what is going on before you decide what the best course of action is. Maybe the used crank will work ok, but I'd want to find out what is going on in the lower end first before just dropping a new crank and bearings in. If the rings and cylinders are good, you might be able to get away with the new crank and bearings. I don't think a balancing is mandatory if you are just replacing a stock crank with another, but Rockatansky can probably speak to that. If you do go with a long block or a short block, you could always swap the valves yourself if you are concerned about the 2-piece valves. It's not hard to change the valves if you have the heads off. Of course this can turn into a pretty deep rabbit hole the more you dig into this engine. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 14-March-2024 at 2:13AM |
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I assumed I'd have to pull the engine to swap the crank. Bench-pressing the 56-pound crank itself isn't the issue -- I don't have enough extra hands to move all the connecting rods around and then get a main cap or two on it to hold it in place. Unless there's some trick to swapping the crank in the car...? It'd be nice not to have to find an engine hoist and stand. I don't really want to buy those since once I'm done, I'd have more stuff to take up space I don't have for something I hope I don't have to use a second time.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 14-March-2024 at 3:19AM |
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For sure, I assumed you were going to pull the engine to change the crank. I just didn't know if you planned to pull the engine at all, as I knew you were still bouncing around some different ideas. For the engine stand and crane, you can probably rent them. Or check marketplace/CL and see if you can find used ones at reasonable prices, then resell when done the job so you don't have to store them. I am sure Rokatansky will chime in with some additional advice. Good luck and keep us posted on the progress. It sucks that you have to go through this job, but maybe tearing into the engine and giving it a once over is a good idea to ensure it's up to the task of long distance towing.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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78FordLtd2
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Posted: 14-March-2024 at 9:08AM |
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One thing for sure, once you get the engine out, you should be able to see what happened and what the previous owner had done and hopefully, it will be a simple fix.
The used crank should be okay. I'd be more concerned about what ither damage has been done because of the glittler. Hopefully the filter caught it all. Keep your stock cam and lifters. If they are in spec and in good shape, I'd leave them alone. I agree...the "new" stuff out there is questionable.
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 14-March-2024 at 10:43AM |
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Reusing very old stock pistons isn't a very good idea. Not many factory pistons are worth keeping, not counting super rare low mileage examples. I've rebuilt two 302 HO's using the old pistons, one whole set was fine(112k miles), and the other had one cracked piston(137k miles). The cylinders were still fine and they used no oil before rebuilding. But those were OEM forged pistons, which was uncommon in any Fords. I'd be most concerned about the cost and machine work for a different crank, and the pistons etc.The valves of course you want to replace if possible, high rpm's caused most of those failures. Pistons seem to cost way more than the old days, cheap end stuff can be $400 a set, while nice forged pistons are more like $600+. New pistons should mean balancing the assembly again. Cost go up fast. $6k for a rebuilt stock level 351C is crazy. I can do that for $3k easily, they are overcharging for both the core parts, and the machine work etc. The refresh I'm planning for my 4V will be $1100ish for the roller cam upgrade, the heads may be under $400, but maybe $750 depending on the valves and wear. Mine may not need balancing or cylinder work, if it does then that's another $500. The oiling system to hit 5500 may be nothing it it's already done, plus depending on what shift rpm(5500 or 6500), could be another $400-$900(roller rockers).
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 14-March-2024 at 11:42AM |
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But if I put in a new (refurbished) crank, am I likely to be able to get away with it for a few years until time and budget allow for a full and proper rebuild? The crank I found for $250 is pictured wrapped in plastic and is marked as being ground 20 under for the mains and the rods, so it appears the machine work is done. The hope is to have the car running again by mid-May to drive 6 hours to a Fairlane Club show, and I'm concerned that if I get a short block for $2K, the lead time will be too long (plus I'd assume I'd want to have heads gone through, valve guides replaced, in addition to aftermarket valves, etc.). Where I live is rather isolated, so machine work isn't exactly convenient out here.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 15-March-2024 at 12:32AM |
Maybe - that is the big question. I think until you get it apart to examine the bottom end it will be hard to say for sure. Hopefully nothing else is damaged. Replacing only the crank and bearings is something we would have done back when I worked at a dealership garage. We wouldn't rebuild an entire engine for one bad component. Often times it worked out, so if you go that route maybe it would for you too. It sounds like the rest of your engine is in decent shape.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 15-March-2024 at 1:49PM |
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The rebuilt crank is a possibility, but the risk is the machine work done to it. If they did not alter the stock balance of it during the machining process, then it should bolt in if the machine work was really good. If they didn't work it just right, the actual bearing clearances might be off a little, or the balance not quite right. Take it apart first if you can, to get a good idea of what needs help now and what looks okay.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 16-March-2024 at 5:15AM |
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the thought of a new production flat tappet cam & lifters is absolutely cringeable and understandable to not want to go there at all. and rollers aren't cheap. stick with / hold on to / reuse the current possibly 50 year old cam? i'm still on the SS Cringe. even if it's technically still good "ran well when pulled" how much time does it have left in it and will it survive being uprooted & replanted? i say uprooted & replanted because Me, if i'm pulling the donk and swapping the crank, i'm going to take it all the way down and minimum berrybush hone & ring it. rings bearings timing set that's my minimum if it's coming out. 1 washer shim on the original oil pump, freeze plugs, RTV & a nice thick coat of Ford Dark Blue. the heads are a problem, why do the crank if you're gonna let a valve drop & destroy it all? cheapest decent stainless valves, retainers & locks (because single groove vs multi groove) and a bargain valve job. i know it's starting to add up. and the damn cam. i'm still seeing older production NOS cams up for sale, lifters are a problem too. there's a Craigslist ad near me for lightweight Ford race lifters i might check out, the ad's been running forever. another idea'r popped up, Rhoads lifters may still have some quality / control going on IDK? i keep coming back to a saying from a wise man, "At The End Of The Day Ya Gotta Piss With The Ya Got"and the con rod nuts. not the bolts, just the nuts, because the threads fracture out causing a failure that always gets blamed on the con rod bolts. the bolts are decent, the nuts are gahbage. cheap insurance that makes it easy to sleep at night, like the valves. why they don't sell a 16 pack IDK, maybe they do now? check Advance Auto and any others near you for a crank kit, Advance shows a kit but won't commit to fitting a Cleveland. $332 / 50 core IIRC eliminates risk of buying gahbage from a scammer online ![]() |
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 16-March-2024 at 9:09AM |
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I'm going to have to risk the scammer online. I was able to verify that the crank in the link to Advance Auto Parts is in fact for Cleveland, but it's not actually available. O'Reilly and AutoZone show it as unavailable for any delivery method, and NAPA doesn't show it at all. Nearest Advance to me is 70 miles, but not in stock in any stores. Free delivery over $35, but went to order only to be told it's unavailable for delivery.
I'm driving to Bakersfield tomorrow to meet with a guy who has a bunch of different Ford cranks to see if there's a Cleveland crank, hopefully already ground. But I do have a machine shop in my town that's well reviewed, so I should be OK there. I assume the heads are a lot easier to remove from the engine if it's out of the car. Are the "stock replacement" valves from Enginetech, Melling, etc. one-piece? To get stainless valves with single-groove keepers means spending like $400 on valves plus new keepers. The "stock replacement" ones would reuse the old keepers. All I'm looking for is to be as sure as I can that a valve head won't drop off, and if I can do that for $55 for valves and like $40 for gaskets, I'd like to do that and save up for a new short block, aluminum heads, a roller cam with the retrofit roller lifters (Howard's and Melling offer those), etc. I'd be looking at like $6K for that, so if I can under $500 now and be as sure as I can reasonably be that I won't have my bottom end explode on the freeway until I have the budget for the all new engine, that's really attractive. My rear main bearing is in the photo below. The main surface of the center bearing was a lot better, but the thrust surface was gone. I didn't remove the other three bearing caps to look at those. I only replaced the center bearing so I'd at least have some thrust surface. So I'm guessing the glitter in the oil is from this. The oil pump is new (I accidentally screwed up mounting the old one, so the drive shaft was pushing against it and it broke the pump neck, so I got a new Melling pump and shaft). ![]() |
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 16-March-2024 at 11:33AM |
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any stock replacement and even some performance valves are 2 piece friction welded. Qualcast is an entry level brand that Tim Meyer and Alex's Parts have carried, Goodson currently lists them so that says something to their quality. they have your intakes available but the X's are out of stock ATM Qualcast on ebay w/hardware, not sure if the retainers are right for your springs though or step up to Ferrea FWIW all Cleveland cranks are '4M' cast code, some are 4MA, 4MAB all the same as far as interchangeability. nobody knows what the engineering changes were |
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 16-March-2024 at 1:19PM |
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SO......... I figured before going to the work of getting a new crank, I should finally use the compression tester I bought. The engine was cold, but I did remove all the plugs and prop open the choke and throttle plates with a screwdriver. These numbers seem not great.
4: 132 □ 8: 128 3: 110 □ 7: 117 2: 124 □ 6: 130 1: 147 □ 5: 137 There is a good bit more carbon on top of the pistons in cylinders 3 and 7. Then I put a little leftover oil into cylinder 3, and instead of 110 psi, I got 140. So I think I need to tell the crankshaft guy I shouldn't go over there until some decisions get made, since my understanding is that if oil makes the compression jump by that much, it's the rings. I'm surprised I'm not getting blowby or oil consumption. ...or since there's carbon on those two pistons, might the water down the carb trick loosen the compression rings? I'm thinking the block would need work because of this (also cylinder 3): ![]() |
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 16-March-2024 at 2:08PM |
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isn't your crank pretty much Stick A Fork In It Done, why hold off on a pretty good deal? they're not getting any easier to find by the day, even store bought. a little vertical scoring, doesn't look too bad. it might've been run a little on the hot side and the clearance tightened up, scored up a little. that alone isn't enough to pull it down but the crank kinda is. the scoring does get back to my berrybush hone minimum though, that'll clean up some / if not all. the best reason to do the water trickle trick IMO would be to make cleaning the pistons easier after you pull it down, if it can clean itself while it's together running all the better!
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72 GT Ute
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78FordLtd2
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Posted: 16-March-2024 at 4:10PM |
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FWIW, if the timing to do a complete build of your motor is bad, I'd try to work with what you've got. Trppace the crank, re-use the old pistons, re-ring them and hone the cylinders, leave the old cam in...if it's good and leave the heads alone. Clean and measure everything to make sure it's all in serviceable condition and go with that. You might get a year or 2 out if it, or more and save your money for something else later.
Just my 2 cents worth
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Inkara1
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Posted: 17-March-2024 at 1:53PM |
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Got the crankshaft. It turns out an 80-year-old retired from his machine shop and the son is cataloging, organizing, and liquidating hundreds of cranks, heads, blocks, etc. He polished and mic'd the main and rod journals for me, and they're 30 under, which is fine because I can get bearings for that. $170 out the door.
Rock Auto actually has the Qualcast valves. The single-groove is stock for 1977-up 400s, or they have Qualcast multi-groove available as well. I'll just get the single-groove valves for a 1979 Bronco with 400. Can I just leave the cam in and not worry about the cam bearings?
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 19-March-2024 at 10:45AM |
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Its sounds like you got a decent deal on the crank. Like I said, I am not expert, but if I were in your situation, I'd take a chance and leave the cam and lifters and cam bearings as is. Like 78FordLTD2 says, do a freshen up as best as you can and hope it stays together until you can do a proper build. I forgot to ask, when you did the torque converter earlier, did you idea to move the trans back with threaded rod work? Or did you just end up dropping it?
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 19-March-2024 at 11:28AM |
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If the camshaft looks very good(the lobes) and the bearings too, no big wear, then reusing all of those parts if fine. Just be super careful to keep the lifters in order(3 them) as they come out, and clean and inspect everything. Take the oil pump apart to check it too, new or not with that crank condition, not the bypass spring though.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Inkara1
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Posted: 19-March-2024 at 12:37PM |
I ended up having to drop it. The exhaust got in the way of the part of the bellhousing that sticks out to hold the starter, and if not for that, I think I would have had enough room for the body of the converter but not also the snout that goes into the trans to make it out. But I was able to drop it enough to get the converter out without having to undo the exhaust other than from the manifolds and without having to undo the parking brake cables, so that saved a lot of time. I cut one of the threaded rods to make basically a longer bolt to help line up the trans to make it easier to put on. Plus, the Hughes converter uses bolts instead of studs/nuts, which is nice because I didn't have to worry about the converter being lined up with the flexplate bolt holes.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 19-March-2024 at 1:40PM |
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the Qualcast valves i linked to are stainless, the Rockauto are std replacement 2 piece friction welded carbon steel, sideways time, $, effort. if it's not in the budget, it's not in the budget, the heads can get done any time, or swapped for a set of 'fresh take-offs' if you run across a deal. did you happen to ask the shop guy if he had any heads? i'd clean him out of everything Cleveland he's got! that was a major score on the crank for sure
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 19-March-2024 at 5:42PM |
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I ended up getting the eBay Qualcast valves you linked to because Rock Auto only had one intake valve and I need eight.
The guy I bought the crank from said someone else had recently bought a bunch of other Cleveland stuff, so I think the pickings were slim. So he polished the rod and main journals, but the sides by the main where the thrust bearing would be against didn't get polished. Do I need to try to polish those two areas so the new thrust bearing doesn't wear out quickly? So last night I dribbled some water down the carb to steam clean the carbon. I didn't really see the ugly black smoke I thought I would, but today I looked at the twomost carboned pistons and they're not fully clean but a lot better than they were before. I can see the concentric circles on the piston top through the black now. The idea was to also see if it would free up the rings. I ran the compression test again. The engine was cold but only sitting one day instead of a week. This time I got these numbers: 4: 135 □ 8: 130 3: 125 □ 7: 125 2: 128 □ 6: 135 1: 140 □ 5: 143 I'm kind of on the fence about whether to rering the pistons because I was hoping to save some work somewhere, but also, I did order new rings with all the other stuff. Should be here in various shipments between Thursday and Monday. Fortunately, I work from home, so that protects against porch pirates. Oh, I guess my other question is if my valve springs are OK to reuse. Rock Auto didn't have 16 springs of any one single brand for the 2V head. I assume it can't be good to mix brands since different manufacturers might have slightly different spring rates.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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78FordLtd2
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Posted: 20-March-2024 at 3:29PM |
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I'd be inclined to polish the thrust surfaces as much as I can and get them as smooth as possible. It's not like a journal but it is still a bearing surface. It wouldn't hurt giving them a light polish.
You can re-use the valve springs as long as they are in service spec. Measure their hieight and test the strengrh of the spring using a valve spring tester. Some guys don't like using the old springs and will swap them out with new ones but I don't see anything wrong with using anything that is still in spec. I don't think your cam bearing will be an issue. To you would feel better changing them, then by all means replace them. Easier to do it now than later. The same with your rings. Was it burning a lot of oil before? If thus is basically a stock rebuild, you should be okay.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 21-March-2024 at 9:49AM |
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the springs will be subject to how the new valves and retainers set up for installed height, and what their pressure is at that installed height. new retainers are required because the stock multi-groove retainers are more like / if not actually for 3/8" stem valves vs 11/32". the multi-groove locks take up the difference between the 3/8" retainers and the 11/32" valve stems. the springs also need to be checked for clearance at max lift / coil bind height. Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!, Alex has drop in spring kits listed 30 days out |
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Posted: 23-March-2024 at 10:36AM |
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I think I have all the parts in stock now. The last shipment of oil pan gasket and new engine and transmission mounts came today. I saw on some speed talk forum that I can use fingernail emery boards to polish the thrust surface -- it helps that they're flat -- so I got two that are 100/180 grit and two that are 250/320 grit. My current task is getting the garage cleaned out enough to have space to do this. We're flying to Texas April 6-9 for the total solar eclipse, so I'm hoping to get the engine pulled the next weekend. My deadline is May 18. I'm planning to take it to a show on Sunday the 19th, so I'd do the 6-hour drive on Saturday the 18th, then hit the road again on Sunday after the show ends at 2 to get back that night so I don't miss any work. Hopefully a month and a half is enough time. I also want to clean the engine bay and organize the wiring while the engine is out, and since the hood has to come off, I'd like to put on the sport hood I bought, but that means I have to paint it. I'd also like to have a weekend or two at least to shake down the engine before taking the long trip.
Are the threads in an aluminum intake strong enough that I can put a plate on the carb mount and lift the engine that way? Or do I need to find mounting points elsewhere to lift it? I don't have the lift points that I've seen on the exhaust manifold bolts on some other engines.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 23-March-2024 at 12:21PM |
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180 - 320 grit is not polishing territory, if you can improve the surface with 320 .... IDK?
is this the thread?
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
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Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Posted: 23-March-2024 at 3:38PM |
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That is the thread, yes. Maybe I could use the 320 emery board to make sure any surface rust is gone, and then use some car paint sandpaper (1000 grit, 2000, etc.) wrapped around a paint stirring stick or something.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Rockatansky
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Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6398 |
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Posted: 25-March-2024 at 10:49AM |
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can you post a pic or 5 of the thrust surface?
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72 GT Ute
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Inkara1
Senior Member
Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Posted: 25-March-2024 at 12:28PM |
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On the new crank or the old one?
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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72FordGTS
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GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 6780 |
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Posted: 25-March-2024 at 11:55PM |
I used a plate on my aluminum intake to lift my engine to install the headers. It worked fine. When I pulled the engine and trans out, I used a leveler and use installed a bolt on the front an rear head to lift it out. When I worked in a shop, we typically just used a couple of bolts in the heads to pull an engine.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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