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Ping at cruise speed

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Rockatansky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-March-2024 at 12:30PM
Originally posted by Inkara1 Inkara1 wrote:

On the new crank or the old one?


the new one

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-March-2024 at 9:36AM
Thrust surface:




1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2024 at 3:36AM
that's what i was afraid of, i might've passed on this crank, may be a core or an unfinished reman in progress? 
IMO it needs to be seen by the nearest crank doctor for evaluation, that thrust surface looks like Joe chowdered on it with his sawzall. 
i don't see how it's even measurable?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-April-2024 at 3:28PM
So I finally got some space in the garage cleared and all the accessories removed from the engine. I have the a/c compressor suspended from a wood board with some tie wire so I don't have to unhook the likes and, er, properly evacuate the refrigerant. I hope to unhook the transmission and exhaust pipes tonight and pull the engine tomorrow morning.

One question for when I complete the work and put the engine back together:

I bought a water pump for it a couple of years ago, but the pump that was on it was good, turns well, is quiet, and doesn't leak, so I left it alone. Those properties still apply. But given what a pain it is to get to the pump, and also given the spotty quality of replacement parts, would I be best advised to stick with the current pump or put on the new one? The brand of the new pump is "Airtex."
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78FordLtd2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-April-2024 at 7:26AM
When I replaced my timing chain on my LTD ll, the old water pump, like yours, was still in good serviceable condition. I put on a new water pump anyway but kept the original. It seemed like a good idea at the time as everything was already apart. The choice is yours but I'd swap it out anyways. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-April-2024 at 11:55AM
The teardown begins. I wonder if this crack in the passenger side exhaust manifold has something to do with my original noise complaint. There are a few other small cracks on both manifolds, but this is the one I can find that I can also see the back side of.





Would I be best trying to get new manifolds on eBay? Or could I get a pair of shorty headers and make them work with the current exhaust pipes?
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-April-2024 at 3:18PM
The passenger side is the usual culprit for cracking and can cause exhaust noise like your original sound.  There won't be any shorty headers that will bolt on without some mods to the head pipes, at least not that I know of.  You could try to find used manifolds, but just hope you don't end up with another set with cracks.

As for the water pump, there is to be a lot said for if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  But if it is the original and since you plan to tow, it might be good insurance, especially since you already have a new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-April-2024 at 5:15PM
I figured I'd need to cut the "trumpet horns" off the front ends of the exhaust pipes, and then clamp on the header collector flanges, but I'm hoping for a minimum beyond that at least for now. I was thinking headers since I need to swap anyway, so I might as well pick up a few horsepower. Shorty because I have a 351C-2V and a C6 transmission, and long-tube headers that fit that combo aren't readily available. I want to keep the current exhaust pipes because I got laid off from my job, which gives me more time to work on the car but limits cash for car stuff that's not really needed. Manifold is cracked, so that's a need, but pipes and mufflers are fine, so not a need.

I'd think about welding that one crack up, but then I'd worry that the other cracks would work their way through. 

Checking eBay, there's not much. I do see a 1971 right-side manifold for $100, but not enough pictures to see if it's cracked, and shipping from Anchorage, Alaska, might be slow and expensive. There's a pair of 72-73 Mustang manifolds for $300 in Arizona, but shipping is $100 to my zip code, so at $400, I'm almost to a new pair of shorty headers at Summit for $480 plus tax with free shipping.
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-April-2024 at 6:59AM
Found a set of manifolds in great condition on eBay, so I bought them.

Question: if the passenger side manifold is prone to cracking, are there any steps I can take to keep the "new" one from also cracking? Anything I need to avoid happening to it?
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-April-2024 at 7:09AM
Originally posted by Inkara1 Inkara1 wrote:

Found a set of manifolds in great condition on eBay, so I bought them.

Question: if the passenger side manifold is prone to cracking, are there any steps I can take to keep the "new" one from also cracking? Anything I need to avoid happening to it?


IIRC, it was partially because of the heat stove for the intake which kept the heat around the manifold.  If you get the new ones ceramic coated that might help keep the temperature done to avoid them cracking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-April-2024 at 5:05PM
Got the new crank in the block today. The thrust surfaces cleaned up nicely with a pair of 280/320 grit emery boards, and now there's not a bunch of end play. Success!

One hiccup I found: the Qualcast valve kit came with retainers and keepers in addition to the valves. The retainers don't fit into the stock springs, but I don't want to get higher performance springs with the stock 2V cam. But the retainer is set up for 7-degree keepers, and the included keepers are 7 degrees. But since the retainers won't fit, I reused the stock retainers. But apparently the stock keepers are 10 degrees, so the 7-degree keepers sit too low, so the spring is less compressed and has a lower seat pressure, which was already only like 75 lbs, not to mention the rocker arm comes awfully close to touching the retainer. I have a set of SBF/Windsor keepers on the way, which are single groove but 10 degrees, in hopes to remedy this.
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2024 at 6:15AM
stock retainers are not 10*, they're special for the multi-groove locks and are comparable to retainers for 3/8" valve stems vs 11/32". that's why the stock retainers ride very high on single groove locks, definitely not an acceptable situation. what you need is a cheap set of stock pressure range springs that suit the retainers that came in the kit rather than a monumental mismatch of components that will almost ensure a dropped valve. 

what are the OD and step diameters of the retainers?

and what is the ID and OD of the spring seat in the heads?

then once you find a compatible assy, the springs need to be verified for clearance at full lift ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2024 at 6:42AM
So the Windsor keepers had the same problem. But I found a good (and fast thanks to Summit next-day shipping) solution: Edelbrock 9724 retainers fit my stock springs and are machined for 7-degree keepers. I tested with a new valve that's not installed in the head yet, and the keepers fit right and the top of the valve stem now sticks up above the retainer as it should.

I'm irrationally excited to be able to get back to work so I can get the heads on. I have the bottom end all done, with the cylinders lightly honed with a  dingleball hone and the crankshaft, pistons, and new bearings and rings all installed.

I might have to take the oil pan back off, though, pending this question:

On the oil pump, the pickup won't stay level. I can screw it in around 7 turns, but where it comes to a hard stop, I'd need another 1/2 turn to have it the right direction, so instead I have to back it off 1/2 turn. But then if the engine is upside-down on the stand, the pickup will move until it's resting on the crankshaft, and with the engine right-side up, it'll turn until it's either all the way down or until the oil pan stops it if it's on. It's still in 6 to 6 1/2 turns, but I've heard it can still suck air through the threads. I tried some Permatex thread sealer in lieu of teflon tape, but it was still loose. Will I be fine as is, or do I need to take the pan back off and put blue Loctite on those threads?

I have this style of pickup if it makes a difference: 
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2024 at 10:37AM
Originally posted by Inkara1 Inkara1 wrote:

On the oil pump, the pickup won't stay level. I can screw it in around 7 turns, but where it comes to a hard stop, I'd need another 1/2 turn to have it the right direction, so instead I have to back it off 1/2 turn. But then if the engine is upside-down on the stand, the pickup will move until it's resting on the crankshaft, and with the engine right-side up, it'll turn until it's either all the way down or until the oil pan stops it if it's on. It's still in 6 to 6 1/2 turns, but I've heard it can still suck air through the threads. I tried some Permatex thread sealer in lieu of teflon tape, but it was still loose. Will I be fine as is, or do I need to take the pan back off and put blue Loctite on those threads?


i went over this here,

https://forum.grantorinosport.org/is-it-my-oil-pump_topic21233_post231533.html?KW=#231533
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2024 at 12:06PM
I had seen that. I guess I could try again, but it was at a very hard stop and it felt like I was putting a lot of pressure on it, although I was holding the pump with my hand, so that may have limited the torque I could put on it. I don't want to damage the pickup. (I  have to remove the pump to install or remove the pickup tube.)
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2024 at 12:03AM
Good news: I was able to put the oil pump in a vise (by the main body, not the neck) and really crank on that pickup to turn it more to get it to stay level. I also redid the thread sealant, so between those two things, it should be able to perform its best.

Got the valves lapped in, new umbrella seals installed, the springs and new retainers in, and both heads installed tonight. Tomorrow I hope to get the intake cleaned and installed and the new exhaust manifolds on before the strong winds start in the afternoon. Once that's done along with the new fuel pump (Carter brand instead of O'Reilly's MasterPro like last time), and backing the carb main jets to 67 or 68 (I upped them to 70 chasing the noise, and I got a lot of carbon that I didn't get at 68), it should be just about ready to put back in the car. I also got new motor and transmission mounts, so I'll put those on too. If things go well, I should have the car back on the road sometime this upcoming week, and then I'll have more than a week to shake it down before I head to the Fairlane Club meet in the Bay Area on the weekend of the 19th. That's a six-hour drive, so I want to test it well first.
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dan0R30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2024 at 3:04AM
Sorry to have read about all the troubles but glad to hear you're almost there! I'm excited for you. Just a heads up on that Carter pump. I and other members here have observed it to over pressurize and cause issues like flooding. Holley carbs in particular don't like it above 7 psi. Can't recall what your setup is but if you don't already have a regulator, keep an eye on your pressure once you've been running it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2024 at 4:31AM
yeah fingers crossed, should be a whole new animal

Originally posted by Inkara1 Inkara1 wrote:

I should have the car back on the road sometime this upcoming week, and then I'll have more than a week to shake it down before I head to the Fairlane Club meet in the Bay Area on the weekend of the 19th. That's a six-hour drive, so I want to test it well first.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2024 at 5:37AM
Good tip about the regulator. I bought the Carter pump because the O'Reilly one appeared to be leaking oil onto my oil filter, and when shining my flashlight at the weep hole I saw a tiny bit of clear liquid that I assume is gas. I think that hole is supposed to have no liquid at all. Pump is just over 2 years old.

I put in an order at O'Reilly for the cheap Mr. Gasket dial regulator to come in this afternoon. I've seen some stories that it can leak (spray) around the dial if it fails, so I'll mount it low and with the dial facing the ground so if it happens to me, the gas doesn't spray all over the engine and hot exhaust. The other options I can get locally get even worse reviews, and if I order online, I might be sitting and waiting for a few days for only that one thing before I can run the car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2024 at 9:44PM
So I got everything buttoned up and installed and got it running. Bad news: I have a dead #1 cylinder. I have a ticking/tapping noise coming from there as verified by the mechanic's stethoscope, and a shake at low RPM that matches the tick/tap. The exhaust manifold is 80-100 degrees cooler than the other cylinders. I pulled that plug wire and had no difference in RPM, but when I pulled the wire from the #2 cylinder, I did get a drop in RPM. I checked that the rockers were on their pedestals torqued to 20 ft-lbs, checked that the pushrods were straight, and used a long screwdriver to verify that the lifters could turn in their bores. (I did forget to crank the engine while the valve cover was off to make sure the rocker arms get rocked. I might pull the cover again to do that.) I also took out the new spark plug and put in an old one to make sure the plug isn't defective, and no difference. I had verified with a spark test light that I'm getting spark there.

Doing hill pulls and 30-minute highway drives, plus flooring the pedal to 4,000 rpm and then off the pedal to 2,000 RPM (to alternate engine vacuum between low and high), haven't gotten the rings to seat unless I'm missing something here.

I checked compression on cylinder 1 and it's about 110, which is low, but it seems as though it shouldn't be completely dead. Cylinder 2 is around 120, and it's contributing power. Those are the only two I tested compression on so far.

I did find that the exhaust valve seat on cylinder 1 is sunken a bit, but before the rebuild, cylinder 1 had the best compression of any of the 8.

Is this likely something with the valves or cam/lifter? Or is this likely that the cast rings haven't seated yet? I need to figure this out soon because the show I'm driving to is in one week, so I need to fix this or get the '62 Fairlane dug out from being used as my workbench.

On the plus side, it seems slightly snappier and more powerful according to the butt dyno, which is impressive for 7 cylinders. It readily revs well into the mid 4,000s, possibly higher but I haven't taken it past 4,500 or so. I have about 72 psi of oil pressure at 70 mph, and somewhere in the mid 50s at 25 or so mph. Also, the noise that prompted me to start this thread in the first place is gone now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter.jenerette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2024 at 1:55AM
Spark + Compression + No idle change; I'd probably start with the intake valve and check the push rod isn't unseated, proper length, etc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2024 at 8:48AM
So I had a bit of an epiphany during church this morning. I bet that sunken exhaust valve seat is letting just enough tension off the spring that it doesn't hold enough seat pressure.  It would also explain the shake I was getting before I started this. I've also heard that a valve that's not seated hard enough can still show something on a compression tester since it doesn't measure leakdown. I'm going to try a .030 shim on the spring and see if it makes a difference. (I wanted to buy a few, but the only quantity O'Reilly would let me order to show up tomorrow is one.)

Obviously if it were a daily driver, I'd pull the heads and either get new valve seats put in or get aluminum heads (which are out of the budget for right now). I hope to be able to report good news tomorrow. If not, I think it's about the last thing to try to be able to make my deadline.

The pushrods were seated correctly, and they're the same ones from before. I put in new valves but didn't change the cam, lifters, pushrods, or rocker arms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2024 at 1:31PM
So I got a .030 shim and made a second one out of .025 aluminum. I put the hardened shim against the spring so it wouldn't chew up the aluminum, but this way, I have .055 of shim, while the best info I can find for the valve spring specs is that without shims, at full open it's .060 from coil bind. I figured I'd need more than .030, but I like not being at coil bind.

It's not buttery smooth, but it is significantly better. The noise is still there, and what shake does remain is still timed to it. The exhaust on that cylinder is still ~80 degrees cooler than the other cylinders. But when I put it in gear and give it gas with my other foot on the brake, I don't get the bad shake anymore like I did before when taking off from a stop. I hope that means the cylinder is making some power now.

I wonder if getting all new valve springs would smooth things further, but hopefully I'm good for the long trip now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2024 at 8:02AM
Got the lifter tick taken care of. The rocker arm for cylinder 1 didn't have a pool of oil on it like the others. I pulled the pushrod and a bunch of oil dripped out, so I think something clogged it, so my tick was from no oil through the pushrod. I could see through it, but I ran a pipe cleaner through it anyway and then sprayed brake cleaner through it. Put it back together and started it, and no more tick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2024 at 6:08AM
Originally posted by Inkara1 Inkara1 wrote:

Got the lifter tick taken care of. The rocker arm for cylinder 1 didn't have a pool of oil on it like the others. I pulled the pushrod and a bunch of oil dripped out, so I think something clogged it, so my tick was from no oil through the pushrod. I could see through it, but I ran a pipe cleaner through it anyway and then sprayed brake cleaner through it. Put it back together and started it, and no more tick.

Good!  So any other issues pending?  Are you going to try and take it on the long trip?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2024 at 7:33AM
I think I've gotten just about everything. Changed the oil this morning to get the break-in stuff out of it. I leave for the trip on Saturday mid-day.

I've found that the engine starts much more quickly and easily now than before the rebuild. I don't know if I'm getting better compression with the new rings, or if it's some setting I tweaked or what, but I'll take it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2024 at 4:42PM
Made the long trip up here! Engine did fine. Rear brakes developed a bad noise, but I can't blame the engine for that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inkara1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2024 at 7:37PM
Engine did fine on the return trip too. 876.8 total miles driven in two days. No oil used that I can tell, although I haven't checked after climbing from Bakersfield to Tehachapi yet. I think we can consider this saga successfully ended.

The brake noise turned out to be a broken spring that let the metal piece that controls the adjuster star wheel fall onto the surface of the drum. I had to buy a hardware kit and replace the broken spring during the show.
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2024 at 3:18AM
That's excellent, a great trip it sounds like.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter.jenerette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2024 at 3:43AM
Success stories are always great to hear. Glad it worked out for you; and I can add this to memory in case I have to pull it up for a something similar occasion! 
Pete Jenerette
1972 Gran Torino (H-Code - 4R70W)
2022 F250 XLT 7.3
2003 Thunderbird
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