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Reading the Electrical Schematic

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squarethumps View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-November-2020 at 1:39PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i don't remember what the issue was but i swapped the regulators and it worked better? i think it's more for the fuel gauge than anything?


Ahh .. I see.   Well, I don't actually have the original cluster. All I have is this sport cluster that came with it when I acquired the car. I guess I will see what happens ?

I manually tested the 3 gauges, and they all work and only work when the key is ON so that is good anyway. As I said before, the oil pressure gauge wires all seem to be A-OK because when I ground the end of the wire that connects to the sending unit, the gauge goes up. That one is DONE.

Next is to start tracking down where the wire for the Temperature starts/stops working.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-November-2020 at 7:47AM
http://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=16377&PID=208064&title=1976-gran-torino-coil-oil-pres-temp-conne#208064

Guys, have a look at this other thread where I was discussing the connector under the hood which I _thought_ was for the coil, oil pressure and temperature gauge. I have a correction which I will also post here :

Indeed there is a COIL wire ( Red with Light Green stripe ) and the OIL PRESSURE wire ( White with a Red stripe ) are there and they are correct.

(Though I think that coil wire will come in to play later on when I am sorting out the tachometer .. there is another wire ( Red w/ Light Blue ) that goes nowhere and I think should do something with the coil / tach wire .. more on that later )

However, that THIRD wire - the Red w/ Yellow Hash - I somehow incorrectly identified that wire as the negative side of the Temperature gauge.   ( Well I know how .. it's because I plugged in the dash cluster before I ever knew it was not original to the car and my testing results were obviously wonky ). In any case .. that connector does NOT contain the wire which goes to the temperature sending unit.

There was another loose wire hanging about from the firewall plug .. a Red w/ White stripe ( imagine that lol ) and when I connect it directly to ground .. BOOM the temperature gauge WORKS.
In any case, both the Oil Pressure gauge and the Temperature Gauge are now correctly identified and sorted.

So now I need to figure out exactly what that Red w/ Yellow Hash wire is all about.   On the schematic in the engine side, it shows that wire going to some vacuum sensor and indicator light ( the light is in the cluster ? trying to understand that ? ) and also it goes to some emission control switch located on the carburetor ??   So I know that my carb doesn't have any sensors or electrical switches other than the electric choke, which I thought was part of the alternator wiring somehow ?   So there is still more sorting to do here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-November-2020 at 8:12AM
sorry for the multiple posts guys. I'm just talking through it as I sort it out.

So ... that Red w/ Yellow Hash wire in the connector under the hood .. still not sure .. but I read on the schematic, and as we've discussed here, that same color wire ( Red w/ Yellow Hash ) started out in position 1 and I have now moved it to position 14.    However, even connecting this wire under the hood to negative ground seems to have no effect.

Furthermore -- ( even without that wire being connected to anything in the engine bay ) I have discovered that when I press the brake pedal ( even with the key OFF ) that ALL the illumination lights come ON. ( Not the dome light ) The 5 illumination lights in the main cluster AND the illumination light behind the climate controls all come ON when I press the brake pedal. So .. now I'm really confused as to what is going on. I guess the thing to do is to follow each side of the brake pedal switch and see where each side goes to understand how this is happening ?

<If I haven't before, allow me to state how much of a PITA electrical issues are for me.>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-November-2020 at 1:36PM
i've seen the red w/yellow wire before... don't recall what it went to??? some cars had different lights on the side of the bezel low fuel econ, door ajar, brake i think? which you may not even need.

 it could be for the a/c idle dashpot solenoid?
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-November-2020 at 2:01PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i've seen the red w/yellow wire before... don't recall what it went to??? some cars had different lights on the side of the bezel low fuel econ, door ajar, brake i think? which you may not even need.

 it could be for the a/c idle dashpot solenoid?


It very well could be. Investigating that wire under the hood, and also realizing that the red w/ white stripe wire is the temperature negative, made me check out this other wire that was just hanging in the breeze. It was the red w/ light blue stripe wire !! ... seeing that totally jarred my brain cells and I remembered that wire was like part of the ignition circuits.   So I actually still have some more understanding and study to do to really grasp what is here on the car and what is missing. That ignition circuitry includes the connection to the tachometer which is on the engine side of the firewall .. that investigation is pending.

new fun -- as I described in the post above, all the illumination lights would turn ON ( even with the key OFF ), when I would press the brake pedal. It's no longer doing that, and I've changed nothing ! lol .. I love problems that come and go by themselves.   Unfortunately, it probably means an intermittent short somewhere I need to find.

ugh .. issue upon issue with the electrical.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-November-2020 at 3:48PM
red blue stripe iirc one of the tach wires is that color?
dash lights are lt blue w/red stripe!  thats weird they come on like that, must be something jumped somewhere??? could be an incorrect bulb jambed in a socket somewhere....
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-December-2020 at 12:13PM
so that's what I get for taking so long to get back to this project.

There are TWO Red w/ Light Blue wires, both in different positions in the blocks that go through the firewall. ( one on each of them in fact )and I forgot about that. One of them, along with the White w/ Light Blue Hash wire used to go to the Ignition Modulator. This car no longer has that or needs it, I guess. These two wires are on firewall connector C-401A which is the passenger connector which carries all the lighting wires for the front of the car.

The other red w light blue wire correctly goes to the Starter Relay.

So .. something I should have done before trying to sort out all the wiring is to take the cluster and make sure that I have all the bulbs working and turned the right way. It may be that the brake light bulb isn't in correctly.

Also -- I found that I don't even have a buzzer in the car !   It was removed by someone.   So .. I need a working buzzer to install. Recommendations ?

Thanks for all the help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-December-2020 at 6:47PM
i may have a good buzzer... i saw one the other night in the garageWink
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-December-2020 at 6:56AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i may have a good buzzer... i saw one the other night in the garageWink


I looked through all the spare parts boxes I have and I don't seem to have one so .... how much might you be asking for said buzzer ? lol. feel free to PM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-December-2020 at 9:19AM
couple of questions for my sanity.

The key switch -- should I be able to turn it "backwards" from the OFF position ? The keys in all the cars I remember my parents having ( I was born in '76) you could turn it "backwards" to an Accessory position.   Or was that a feature in 80's cars ?

Secondly, IIRC, the brake light, the fasten seat belts light and possibly any other lights should come ON when I turn the key to the "RUN" position, which on this car does seem to be 2 clicks past OFF. correct ?
( those are the only two lights that I have which would light on my dash cluster .. still trying to figure out why there is a break in the circuitry on the printed circuit for the positive side of that one light at position 12 )

I know that the brake light works because when I manually ground the parking brake wire ( the parking brake switch isn't working ), then the brake light will come ON.

The other light, the fasten seat belts light, I would also expect to come on, but granted, I haven't traced down that positive wire, and the seat belt buckles are not in the car, which is where the switch would be I would guess?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-December-2020 at 10:48AM
Additionally I've figured out that the seat belt buzzer, which is in fact different than the ignition buzzer, is not working. I am getting power to the seat belt buzzer, but when I directly ground the single wire which goes to the seatbelt retractor, even at the connector itself, the buzzer does not buzz. I've also made sure that the black wire, which provides a constant ground to the buzzer, is indeed connected to ground.

So .. I ordered up a new OEM buzzer, that I got pretty cheap on ebay.

one more piece of the puzzle sorted.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2020 at 3:07PM
My clock doesn't work, and I see now that my ashtray cover ( the black part which constitutes the part of the dash which is visible ) is broken off.

I'm looking for a working clock and a whole ash tray if anyone has those.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2020 at 5:19PM
Turn the key back and it is accessory. Forward to ignition and brake and alt. light are glowing red. Circuit board can be repaired if you cannot find a replacement. Solder is your friend. Just be careful.

CJ probably has the ashtray assembly but you may have to paint it to match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2020 at 5:27PM
ok .. so why might my key not turn "backwards" ?   Is the problem in the key barrel part itself or in the ignition switch with the rod behind the gauge cluster ?

I'll know more about the lights and buzzer working with the key movements after I get the new seat belt buzzer installed. The wires all seem to be good, just that buzzer is busted.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2020 at 5:42PM
How far does the cylinder move back from off position? I remember replacing the switch on my first GTS back in high school and adjusting it wasn't too tricky. How far do you have to roll the cylinder for start? It is about parallel to the column when starting I believe. Could you could be in acc. when locked. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-December-2020 at 7:25PM
pm'd you on the ashtray... got a blk one ready to goWink

john is right about the switch down on the column... do the other notches feel right? could be the switch too??? i've sold a few to guys...
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2020 at 12:51PM
So .. the other notches do feel right, I _think_. Yes the "start" position does seem to be parallel with the column, and I do feel the "forward" Acc position, and also the Run position click into place, and I believe that these are good.

I think a good way to test this is to test the blue w red stripe wire which goes to the radio. It should be charged 12+ when the key is in both the Acc and the Run positions. ( And also the backwards Acc position IF I could get the key to turn backwards ) but the ignition wire which goes to the coil should only be charged in the "Run" position I believe.


When I try to turn the key backwards from the Off position ( I am sure it is the off position because I can easily take the key out ), it just .. kinda feels .. jammed.   like it's kinda threatening to turn, kinda springy, I can see the rod which goes to the ignition switch sort of wiggling, but no movement. I have another ignition switch too which I replaced when I had no idea what all these wires really did ( now I know ). Perhaps I can look at it and see if it allows movement of the switch in that direction.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2020 at 1:43PM
lt blu w/ red stripe should be dash lights
 now you got me thinking.... i'll have to go out to the garage and check positions on my car....hmm
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2020 at 1:52PM
yes - sorry for the misinformation above ... the blue w red stripe is for the illumination, and does indeed get 12v+ when the light switch is pulled out. It is the yellow with black hash wire which carries the power when the key is either in the Acc or the Run positions, according to the schematic I have. It is currently only carrying power when the key is in the Run position.

Thinking a bit more .. would there be a difference from '74 to '76 for the key functionality ? I would guess not, but it's possible that the column also came out of the '74. I would still suppose the key mechanically moves the same.

btw .. that yellow with black hash wire connects to the fuse panel ( which reminds me .. it's really funny ... this seemingly authentic schematic I have seems to be very accurate in the first pages .. but towards the end, in the "Protection and Convenience" sections and beyond, I find more and more mistakes. Fuse #s wrong, "D" or "H" missing when describing the circuit wire color .. odd )
The power for the other side of the fuse apparently comes from the single black with light green hash from the ignition switch. Have a look here at the schematic :



The yellow with black hash ( circuit 137 ) is the radio power and connects through fuse F-1 to the single black with light green hash wire. I think the schematic says that all of these wires ( both spots on the connector ) should be 12v+ in either the ACC or the RUN positions. On my car, in the ACC position, none of those wires are 12v+, but in the RUN position, they are 12v+.



Edited by squarethumps - 07-December-2020 at 2:24PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2020 at 2:29PM
Hmm .. the labels of those positions on the switch might give me a clue, and maybe someone can confirm ?

The positions state
ACC
LOCK
OFF
RUN
START

... and the wiring shows that the black w/ light green hash wire is hot in the ACC and RUN positions, but does not show it hot in the OFF position.

Am I expecting the wrong thing here ?   I thought that the radio always came on with forward position 1 ( 1 out of 3, the other two being RUN and START ) on these old cars ?   Is that wrong ?   does the radio only come on when the key is in the "backwards" ACC position? ( and RUN of course ) ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2020 at 3:03PM
If the radio only came on in accessory, how would you listen while cruising? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-December-2020 at 5:41PM
i believe it's on in the on position and the acc position. btw yes my key turns back from the lock position for acc
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2020 at 2:28AM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

If the radio only came on in accessory, how would you listen while cruising? 



sorry .. my sentences were a bit wacky .. and my assumptions too ... but yes .. I was asking if the radio only came on in the backwards "ACC" position AND the RUN position.

But the diagram I have, and others observations, seem to state that it should come on in ACC position and RUN position. It seems that there is no forward ACC position ?

There must be something wrong with my ignition switch that it won't allow the key to turn backwards, and the "ACC" position might not be messed up .. if I can get the key to turn.

I will loosen the nuts that hold it down tonight and see if I can figure it out.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2020 at 2:32AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i believe it's on in the on position and the acc position. btw yes my key turns back from the lock position for acc


so does that mean that your first forward position is in fact NOT an ACC position ? it is the OFF position and the radio does NOT come on ? It only has power in the backwards position (ACC) and the second position forward (RUN) ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-December-2020 at 5:33PM
So I completely removed my ignition switch and I still could not finegle ( how does one spell finagal ? ) the key into the backwards "ACC" position.
Is it possible that the column I have doesn't allow this ? or is it much more likely that something is afoul inside the key barrel or ( I don't even know what's in there yet )



I have verified that the ignition switch itself does in fact have the positions for ACC from backwards and only in that position, and the RUN position, do the pins for black with green hash wires become continuous with the positions for the yellow wires ( which carry the constant 12v+ ).

So the ignition switch would work .. IF the key could turn backwards.

another puzzle to solve. I'm waiting for a buzzer and some other lights to arrive anyway. I also need to put in a new heater box resistor.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2020 at 4:03AM
I believe you need a new ignition key cylinder. Those have fragile parts inside that after decades, will eventually fail. It's a good time now to replace all of those in older cars. If the key is lost or the cylinder fails and doesn't allow it to turn to RUN, you will have to destroy the cylinder to remove it. That can also damage the column, which is an even bigger issue.

So hunt a new key cylinder, whether OEM or a good aftermarket unit. That should help a lot.
Don
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92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2020 at 4:16AM
Do not destroy the cylinder or the column trying to remove it. There is a small slot under the turn signal switch that is paper thin that you just poke a small flat screwdriver through and the key cylinder pops out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2020 at 4:25AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2020 at 4:30AM
THANK YOU for that pic.

I wonder if I can get a barrel which matches my existing key ?

actually I'd like to have an original OEM key barrel and lock set.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote squarethumps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-December-2020 at 4:40AM
actually -- based on your statements ... would it be smarter to get an aftermarket key tumbler ?   Would an OEM one be subject to the same deterioration sitting in the box on a shelf for the last 30 years ?
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